Discussion:
ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
(too old to reply)
Bipin Trivedi
2010-04-12 05:13:48 UTC
Permalink
Forwarding herewith reply received from Indira Hirway against my objection
for her article in the Hindu.





From: Indira Hirway [mailto:***@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:01 AM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Subject: Re: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE




Dear Mr. Bipin Trivedi,



I was away and therefore seen your mail only today. It is an interesting
mail!

I do not know you, but it will be nice to talk. Can we meet or talk? My
mobile is . I am located in Ahmedabad.



Best wishes,



Indira Hirway



--- On Sat, 3/20/10, Bipin Trivedi <***@dataone.in> wrote:


From: Bipin Trivedi <***@dataone.in>
Subject: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
To: ***@thehindu.co.in
Cc: ***@cfda.ac.in, ***@yahoo.com
Date: Saturday, March 20, 2010, 4:51 PM

The Editor

Hindu Business Line



I refer to article by Dr. Indira Hirway in Hindu Business Line on Gujarat
economy sustains growth; human development index falls Feb. 25, 2010.



You are mentioning report of the period 1993 to 2005 in 2010 and
highlighting the issue. Do you have current figure or figure upto March 2009
of the same or even upto March 2008? How can you highlight 4 years old news?
Gujarat has much changed thereafter. Please be updated and publish
accordingly.



Gujarat is on very much development path even in the HDI parameters also.
Please search latest figure and publish accordingly and stop tarnishing
Gujarat image just because Narendra Modi will not get credit. I am not
belonging to any political party and not fan of Narendra Modi but I am fan
of development, whoever does it.



Actually you are indirectly helping Narendra Modi popularity in Gujarati
people by repeating attempts of tarnishing Gujarat image.



Thanks

Bipin Trivedi





_________________________________________
reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
Critiques & Collaborations
To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-***@sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.
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Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi
2010-04-12 14:02:24 UTC
Permalink
Bipin,
you have hit where it really sticks out, media men and women seem to have
strange hate for Narendra Modi and very affectionate love for Sonia, in the
process, the more the hate is spread, the voters in Gujarath are giving
thumbs up to Modi, and for sure, they know best, as they have seen the
governance rendered by the Nehru, his minions later, India the india and her
Rajiv and now Sonia and her minions.!
regards,
Rajen.
Post by Bipin Trivedi
Forwarding herewith reply received from Indira Hirway against my objection
for her article in the Hindu.
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:01 AM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Subject: Re: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Dear Mr. Bipin Trivedi,
I was away and therefore seen your mail only today. It is an interesting
mail!
I do not know you, but it will be nice to talk. Can we meet or talk? My
mobile is . I am located in Ahmedabad.
Best wishes,
Indira Hirway
Subject: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Date: Saturday, March 20, 2010, 4:51 PM
The Editor
Hindu Business Line
I refer to article by Dr. Indira Hirway in Hindu Business Line on Gujarat
economy sustains growth; human development index falls Feb. 25, 2010.
You are mentioning report of the period 1993 to 2005 in 2010 and
highlighting the issue. Do you have current figure or figure upto March 2009
of the same or even upto March 2008? How can you highlight 4 years old news?
Gujarat has much changed thereafter. Please be updated and publish
accordingly.
Gujarat is on very much development path even in the HDI parameters also.
Please search latest figure and publish accordingly and stop tarnishing
Gujarat image just because Narendra Modi will not get credit. I am not
belonging to any political party and not fan of Narendra Modi but I am fan
of development, whoever does it.
Actually you are indirectly helping Narendra Modi popularity in Gujarati
people by repeating attempts of tarnishing Gujarat image.
Thanks
Bipin Trivedi
_________________________________________
reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
Critiques & Collaborations
subscribe in the subject header.
To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
--
Rajen.
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Bipin Trivedi
2010-04-13 05:02:06 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Dear Rajen for your consent and views.





From: Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi [mailto:***@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:32 PM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: sarai-list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE



Bipin,

you have hit where it really sticks out, media men and women seem to have
strange hate for Narendra Modi and very affectionate love for Sonia, in the
process, the more the hate is spread, the voters in Gujarath are giving
thumbs up to Modi, and for sure, they know best, as they have seen the
governance rendered by the Nehru, his minions later, India the india and her
Rajiv and now Sonia and her minions.!

regards,

Rajen.

On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 10:43 AM, Bipin Trivedi <***@dataone.in> wrote:

Forwarding herewith reply received from Indira Hirway against my objection
for her article in the Hindu.





From: Indira Hirway [mailto:***@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:01 AM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Subject: Re: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE




Dear Mr. Bipin Trivedi,



I was away and therefore seen your mail only today. It is an interesting
mail!

I do not know you, but it will be nice to talk. Can we meet or talk? My
mobile is . I am located in Ahmedabad.



Best wishes,



Indira Hirway



--- On Sat, 3/20/10, Bipin Trivedi <***@dataone.in> wrote:


From: Bipin Trivedi <***@dataone.in>
Subject: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
To: ***@thehindu.co.in
Cc: ***@cfda.ac.in, ***@yahoo.com
Date: Saturday, March 20, 2010, 4:51 PM

The Editor

Hindu Business Line



I refer to article by Dr. Indira Hirway in Hindu Business Line on Gujarat
economy sustains growth; human development index falls Feb. 25, 2010.



You are mentioning report of the period 1993 to 2005 in 2010 and
highlighting the issue. Do you have current figure or figure upto March 2009
of the same or even upto March 2008? How can you highlight 4 years old news?
Gujarat has much changed thereafter. Please be updated and publish
accordingly.



Gujarat is on very much development path even in the HDI parameters also.
Please search latest figure and publish accordingly and stop tarnishing
Gujarat image just because Narendra Modi will not get credit. I am not
belonging to any political party and not fan of Narendra Modi but I am fan
of development, whoever does it.



Actually you are indirectly helping Narendra Modi popularity in Gujarati
people by repeating attempts of tarnishing Gujarat image.



Thanks

Bipin Trivedi





_________________________________________
reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
Critiques & Collaborations
To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-***@sarai.net with subscribe
in the subject header.
To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
--
Rajen.

_________________________________________
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Critiques & Collaborations
To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-***@sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.
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Rakesh Iyer
2010-04-13 05:05:15 UTC
Permalink
It seems Modi has got further additions to his list of those who want to
brag about the 'image of Gujarat'. Anyways, the very same Modi didn't
realize that post-Godhra pogrom also tarnished the image of Gujarat.

Rakesh
Post by Bipin Trivedi
Thanks Dear Rajen for your consent and views.
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:32 PM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: sarai-list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Bipin,
you have hit where it really sticks out, media men and women seem to have
strange hate for Narendra Modi and very affectionate love for Sonia, in the
process, the more the hate is spread, the voters in Gujarath are giving
thumbs up to Modi, and for sure, they know best, as they have seen the
governance rendered by the Nehru, his minions later, India the india and her
Rajiv and now Sonia and her minions.!
regards,
Rajen.
Forwarding herewith reply received from Indira Hirway against my objection
for her article in the Hindu.
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:01 AM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Subject: Re: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Dear Mr. Bipin Trivedi,
I was away and therefore seen your mail only today. It is an interesting
mail!
I do not know you, but it will be nice to talk. Can we meet or talk? My
mobile is . I am located in Ahmedabad.
Best wishes,
Indira Hirway
Subject: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Date: Saturday, March 20, 2010, 4:51 PM
The Editor
Hindu Business Line
I refer to article by Dr. Indira Hirway in Hindu Business Line on Gujarat
economy sustains growth; human development index falls Feb. 25, 2010.
You are mentioning report of the period 1993 to 2005 in 2010 and
highlighting the issue. Do you have current figure or figure upto March 2009
of the same or even upto March 2008? How can you highlight 4 years old news?
Gujarat has much changed thereafter. Please be updated and publish
accordingly.
Gujarat is on very much development path even in the HDI parameters also.
Please search latest figure and publish accordingly and stop tarnishing
Gujarat image just because Narendra Modi will not get credit. I am not
belonging to any political party and not fan of Narendra Modi but I am fan
of development, whoever does it.
Actually you are indirectly helping Narendra Modi popularity in Gujarati
people by repeating attempts of tarnishing Gujarat image.
Thanks
Bipin Trivedi
_________________________________________
reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
Critiques & Collaborations
in the subject header.
To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
--
Rajen.
_________________________________________
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Critiques & Collaborations
subscribe in the subject header.
To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
_________________________________________
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Critiques & Collaborations
To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-***@sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.
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Pawan Durani
2010-04-13 05:17:26 UTC
Permalink
Dear Rakesh ,

There is nothing to brag about . The action speaks louder. Please
visit Gujarat once and see the change.

And to tell you , i travel to almost every city in the country to A
category cities to B & C .... I am on road 25 days a month and I know
where each state stands.

And yes....i dont drive trucks

regards

Pawan
Post by Rakesh Iyer
It seems Modi has got further additions to his list of those who want to
brag about the 'image of Gujarat'. Anyways, the very same Modi didn't
realize that post-Godhra pogrom also tarnished the image of Gujarat.
Rakesh
Post by Bipin Trivedi
Thanks Dear Rajen for your consent and views.
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:32 PM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: sarai-list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Bipin,
you have hit where it really sticks out, media men and women seem to have
strange hate for Narendra Modi and very affectionate love for Sonia, in the
process, the more the hate is spread, the voters in Gujarath are giving
thumbs up to Modi, and for sure, they know best, as they have seen the
governance rendered by the Nehru, his minions later, India the india and her
Rajiv and now Sonia and her minions.!
regards,
Rajen.
Forwarding herewith reply received from Indira Hirway against my objection
for her article in the Hindu.
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:01 AM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Subject: Re: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Dear Mr. Bipin Trivedi,
I was away and therefore seen your mail only today. It is an interesting
mail!
I do not know you, but it will be nice to talk. Can we meet or talk?  My
mobile is                        . I am located in Ahmedabad.
Best wishes,
Indira Hirway
Subject: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Date: Saturday, March 20, 2010, 4:51 PM
The Editor
Hindu Business Line
I refer to article by Dr. Indira Hirway in Hindu Business Line on Gujarat
economy sustains growth; human development index falls Feb. 25, 2010.
You are mentioning report of the period 1993 to 2005 in 2010 and
highlighting the issue. Do you have current figure or figure upto March 2009
of the same or even upto March 2008? How can you highlight 4 years old news?
Gujarat has much changed thereafter. Please be updated and publish
accordingly.
Gujarat is on very much development path even in the HDI parameters also.
Please search latest figure and publish accordingly and stop tarnishing
Gujarat image just because Narendra Modi will not get credit. I am not
belonging to any political party and not fan of Narendra Modi but I am fan
of development, whoever does it.
Actually you are indirectly helping Narendra Modi popularity in Gujarati
people by repeating attempts of tarnishing Gujarat image.
Thanks
Bipin Trivedi
_________________________________________
reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
Critiques & Collaborations
in the subject header.
To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
--
Rajen.
_________________________________________
reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
Critiques & Collaborations
subscribe in the subject header.
To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
_________________________________________
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Critiques & Collaborations
To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
_________________________________________
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Critiques & Collaborations
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List archiv
Rakesh Iyer
2010-04-13 05:24:11 UTC
Permalink
Dear Pawan

Well. I never said Modi didn't bring development. But it seems ironical that
a CM constantly is fighting opposition in the name of them destroying the
image of Gujarat, even in elections. Two elections have gone now with Modi
talking about Gujarati asmita. Is Modi afraid of the development he has
himself brought, that it can't win elections for him?

As for the changes, changes will take place. Good. But is everybody
benefiting from such 'wonderful changes'? That's the question you must
answer.

I think our argument is now turning to just intellectual point making. We
need to find answers as much as we can and then discuss. I would try to do
the same myself.

Rakesh
_________________________________________
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Critiques & Collaborations
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Bipin Trivedi
2010-04-13 05:29:37 UTC
Permalink
Bhagalpur massacre didn't tarnish the image of Bihar, Shikh killing didn't
tarnish the image of Delhi/India, Mumbai bomb blast followed by the riots
didn't tarnished the image of Mumbai/Maharashtra. These are few can be
listed many such more, but only Gujarat riots tarnished the image of
Gujarat!!! For argument also normally everyone use Gujarat name only.



However, this much hatred of Gujarat will not at all affect its development
and prosperity, since Gujarati's are very soft and sober and never show
hatred for anyone.



Thanks

Bipin





From: Rakesh Iyer [mailto:***@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 10:35 AM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi; sarai-list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE



It seems Modi has got further additions to his list of those who want to
brag about the 'image of Gujarat'. Anyways, the very same Modi didn't
realize that post-Godhra pogrom also tarnished the image of Gujarat.

Rakesh

On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 10:32 AM, Bipin Trivedi <***@dataone.in> wrote:

Thanks Dear Rajen for your consent and views.





From: Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi [mailto:***@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:32 PM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: sarai-list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE




Bipin,

you have hit where it really sticks out, media men and women seem to have
strange hate for Narendra Modi and very affectionate love for Sonia, in the
process, the more the hate is spread, the voters in Gujarath are giving
thumbs up to Modi, and for sure, they know best, as they have seen the
governance rendered by the Nehru, his minions later, India the india and her
Rajiv and now Sonia and her minions.!

regards,

Rajen.

On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 10:43 AM, Bipin Trivedi <***@dataone.in> wrote:

Forwarding herewith reply received from Indira Hirway against my objection
for her article in the Hindu.





From: Indira Hirway [mailto:***@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:01 AM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Subject: Re: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE




Dear Mr. Bipin Trivedi,



I was away and therefore seen your mail only today. It is an interesting
mail!

I do not know you, but it will be nice to talk. Can we meet or talk? My
mobile is . I am located in Ahmedabad.



Best wishes,



Indira Hirway



--- On Sat, 3/20/10, Bipin Trivedi <***@dataone.in> wrote:


From: Bipin Trivedi <***@dataone.in>
Subject: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
To: ***@thehindu.co.in
Cc: ***@cfda.ac.in, ***@yahoo.com
Date: Saturday, March 20, 2010, 4:51 PM

The Editor

Hindu Business Line



I refer to article by Dr. Indira Hirway in Hindu Business Line on Gujarat
economy sustains growth; human development index falls Feb. 25, 2010.



You are mentioning report of the period 1993 to 2005 in 2010 and
highlighting the issue. Do you have current figure or figure upto March 2009
of the same or even upto March 2008? How can you highlight 4 years old news?
Gujarat has much changed thereafter. Please be updated and publish
accordingly.



Gujarat is on very much development path even in the HDI parameters also.
Please search latest figure and publish accordingly and stop tarnishing
Gujarat image just because Narendra Modi will not get credit. I am not
belonging to any political party and not fan of Narendra Modi but I am fan
of development, whoever does it.



Actually you are indirectly helping Narendra Modi popularity in Gujarati
people by repeating attempts of tarnishing Gujarat image.



Thanks

Bipin Trivedi





_________________________________________
reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
Critiques & Collaborations
To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-***@sarai.net with subscribe
in the subject header.
To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>




--
Rajen.

_________________________________________
reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
Critiques & Collaborations
To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-***@sarai.net with subscribe
in the subject header.
To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>



_________________________________________
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Critiques & Collaborations
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anupam chakravartty
2010-04-13 07:22:55 UTC
Permalink
Bipin,

It is has been only Mr Narendra Modi, the Chief Minister of Gujarat, who
thinks that anything being said against BJP Gujarat or BJP-ruled government
is against Gujarati people. Gujarat has more people than you think you know,
Bipin. Hence, your statement also proves that you do not know anything about
the glory of Gujarat. Your very sense of Gujarat begins with Modi and ends
with Modi. There are documented evidences since 2002 pogrom that it was Mr
Modi in his speech and actions have been accusing everyone for tarnishing
the image of Gujarat. As a political leader, if he feels so, he has every
right to engage in such a discourse. But the fact, that there are parallel
political discourses in Gujarat that cannot be undermined and I am sure when
they voice their concerns about state government or its organs, they are not
tarnishing its image but working towards a better, a more tolerant and a
democratic Gujarat.

You have been abashedly using this slogan about Gujarat's image being
tarnished as if you have inherited the legacy of this state. When a certain
section of people demand their rights or hope for justice, you cannot twist
it and turn it against its own people by deeming their protests as a move to
tarnish the image of Gujarat. When people from Vapi in South Gujarat or
Ankleshwar voice their concerns about pollution, these are residents of
these areas who suffer from it. It is Manish Tandel, the fisherman, AND NOT
ME OR YOU who has to go all the way to Porbander from Navsari, even though
sea is on his backyard. For Tandel, finding his catch is his only concern
more than the risk of getting kidnapped by Somali pirates in the high seas
or straying on to the waters of Pakistan or his dinghy washed away by
torrential storms. Have you wondered why thousands of fishermen from Navsari
and Valsad district have to go 800 kilometres every six months to Porbander?


Iqbal Hasan Mamdu, visually impaired since birth has spent eight years
inside a prison -- first accused as a terrorist for burning a train, then
when POTA was repealed now waiting for his trial. When Modi says there are
no jails in India fit for him to be imprisoned, he is right. The jails in
Gujarat, as admitted by Gujarat Home Minister, Amit Shah, himself on the
floor of the Gujarat State Assembly, are overcrowded with prisoners.

Eight years back, on Feb 27, when Satish Mishra's wife was exhumed by the
flames of fire of a train, that allegedly changed the course of history for
Gujarat, health officials could not confirm if his wife was missing or dead.
While, local VHP offices immediately branded her as a martyr, a karsevak
from Ayodhya and put her posters in their offices. Was it Mishra's decision
to send his daughter from Vadodara to Sultanpur in UP to spend rest of her
childhood with her grandparents, while he waited for one fact finding
commission after the another to confirm his exact statement as an eyewitness
of the tragedy?

What happens to Member of Gujarat Legislative Assembly, Kanu Kalsaria? He is
very much a part of the BJP when he raised objections to a privately owned
detergent manufacturing plant being set up in his village because that would
take all the water meant for the animals and people. Is he tarnishing the
image of Gujarat by raising objection to the construction of a industry?

Actually, what is your fascination with image Bipin? you and Pawan Durani
have been harping about this one elusive thing called image. Do you mean to
say, the seeming is true and what does not appear is not? Your politics is
such that it will only touch on the issues which are seemingly existent, but
about the issues which have been pushed under the carpet, it can wait and
rot.

Although, now I do not have a home per se, I grew up in this little town in
Assam the north eastern part of India. There was a point of time, when about
70 extremist groups were operating from that region organising protests,
bomb blasts, bandhs, killings on an everyday basis. So much happened in
these areas that three generation of youths misguided by their own ideals
and cheated by an extremely corrupt government making money through
security-terror apparatus. Some said there were Chinese training north
eastern youths, others said it was the lack of development. Do you think it
was the lack of development that forced Assamese youths to take up arms
against the state? This is coming from a state, where the first oil refinery
and an already existing tea industry was there before India got
independence. So was it degeneration in a phased manner adopted by
successive governments in Assam that lead to this insurgency? And now when I
say this, you will say i am tarnishing the image of north eastern states.

People like you are the enemies of the nation, who are ready to do cover ups
for any political outfit at the slight provocation.

Anupam
Post by Bipin Trivedi
Bhagalpur massacre didn't tarnish the image of Bihar, Shikh killing didn't
tarnish the image of Delhi/India, Mumbai bomb blast followed by the riots
didn't tarnished the image of Mumbai/Maharashtra. These are few can be
listed many such more, but only Gujarat riots tarnished the image of
Gujarat!!! For argument also normally everyone use Gujarat name only.
However, this much hatred of Gujarat will not at all affect its development
and prosperity, since Gujarati's are very soft and sober and never show
hatred for anyone.
Thanks
Bipin
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 10:35 AM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi; sarai-list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
It seems Modi has got further additions to his list of those who want to
brag about the 'image of Gujarat'. Anyways, the very same Modi didn't
realize that post-Godhra pogrom also tarnished the image of Gujarat.
Rakesh
Thanks Dear Rajen for your consent and views.
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:32 PM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: sarai-list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Bipin,
you have hit where it really sticks out, media men and women seem to have
strange hate for Narendra Modi and very affectionate love for Sonia, in the
process, the more the hate is spread, the voters in Gujarath are giving
thumbs up to Modi, and for sure, they know best, as they have seen the
governance rendered by the Nehru, his minions later, India the india and her
Rajiv and now Sonia and her minions.!
regards,
Rajen.
Forwarding herewith reply received from Indira Hirway against my objection
for her article in the Hindu.
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:01 AM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Subject: Re: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Dear Mr. Bipin Trivedi,
I was away and therefore seen your mail only today. It is an interesting
mail!
I do not know you, but it will be nice to talk. Can we meet or talk? My
mobile is . I am located in Ahmedabad.
Best wishes,
Indira Hirway
Subject: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Date: Saturday, March 20, 2010, 4:51 PM
The Editor
Hindu Business Line
I refer to article by Dr. Indira Hirway in Hindu Business Line on Gujarat
economy sustains growth; human development index falls Feb. 25, 2010.
You are mentioning report of the period 1993 to 2005 in 2010 and
highlighting the issue. Do you have current figure or figure upto March 2009
of the same or even upto March 2008? How can you highlight 4 years old news?
Gujarat has much changed thereafter. Please be updated and publish
accordingly.
Gujarat is on very much development path even in the HDI parameters also.
Please search latest figure and publish accordingly and stop tarnishing
Gujarat image just because Narendra Modi will not get credit. I am not
belonging to any political party and not fan of Narendra Modi but I am fan
of development, whoever does it.
Actually you are indirectly helping Narendra Modi popularity in Gujarati
people by repeating attempts of tarnishing Gujarat image.
Thanks
Bipin Trivedi
_________________________________________
reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
Critiques & Collaborations
in the subject header.
To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
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--
Rajen.
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Critiques & Collaborations
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Pawan Durani
2010-04-13 08:31:22 UTC
Permalink
NamaskAr

And do you feel that you have been balanced in your views ?

regards

pawan


On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 12:52 PM, anupam chakravartty
Post by Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi
Bipin,
It is has been only Mr Narendra Modi, the Chief Minister of Gujarat, who
thinks that anything being said against BJP Gujarat or BJP-ruled government
is against Gujarati people. Gujarat has more people than you think you know,
Bipin. Hence, your statement also proves that you do not know anything about
the glory of Gujarat. Your very sense of Gujarat begins with Modi and ends
with Modi. There are documented evidences since 2002 pogrom that it was Mr
Modi in his speech and actions have been accusing everyone for tarnishing
the image of Gujarat. As a political leader, if he feels so, he has every
right to engage in such a discourse. But the fact, that there are parallel
political discourses in Gujarat that cannot be undermined and I am sure when
they voice their concerns about state government or its organs, they are not
tarnishing its image but working towards a better, a more tolerant and a
democratic Gujarat.
You have been abashedly using this slogan about Gujarat's image being
tarnished as if you have inherited the legacy of this state. When a certain
section of people demand their rights or hope for justice, you cannot twist
it and turn it against its own people by deeming their protests as a move to
tarnish the image of Gujarat. When people from Vapi in South Gujarat or
Ankleshwar voice their concerns about pollution, these are residents of
these areas who suffer from it. It is Manish Tandel, the fisherman, AND NOT
ME OR YOU who has to go all the way to Porbander from Navsari, even though
sea is on his backyard. For Tandel, finding his catch is his only concern
more than the risk of getting kidnapped by Somali pirates in the high seas
or straying on to the waters of Pakistan or his dinghy washed away by
torrential storms. Have you wondered why thousands of fishermen from Navsari
and Valsad district have to go 800 kilometres every six months to Porbander?
Iqbal Hasan Mamdu, visually impaired since birth has spent eight years
inside a prison -- first accused as a terrorist for burning a train, then
when POTA was repealed now waiting for his trial. When Modi says there are
no jails in India fit for him to be imprisoned, he is right. The jails in
Gujarat, as admitted by Gujarat Home Minister, Amit Shah, himself on the
floor of the Gujarat State Assembly, are overcrowded with prisoners.
Eight years back, on Feb 27, when Satish Mishra's wife was exhumed by the
flames of fire of a train, that allegedly changed the course of history for
Gujarat, health officials could not confirm if his wife was missing or dead.
While, local VHP offices immediately branded her as a martyr, a karsevak
from Ayodhya and put her posters in their offices. Was it Mishra's decision
to send his daughter from Vadodara to Sultanpur in UP to spend rest of her
childhood with her grandparents, while he waited for one fact finding
commission after the another to confirm his exact statement as an eyewitness
of the tragedy?
What happens to Member of Gujarat Legislative Assembly, Kanu Kalsaria? He is
very much a part of the BJP when he raised objections to a privately owned
detergent manufacturing plant being set up in his village because that would
take all the water meant for the animals and people. Is he tarnishing the
image of Gujarat by raising objection to the construction of a industry?
Actually, what is your fascination with image Bipin? you and Pawan Durani
have been harping about this one elusive thing called image. Do you mean to
say, the seeming is true and what does not appear is not? Your politics is
such that it will only touch on the issues which are seemingly existent, but
about the issues which have been pushed under the carpet, it can wait and
rot.
Although, now I do not have a home per se, I grew up in this little town in
Assam the north eastern part of India. There was a point of time, when about
70 extremist groups were operating from that region organising protests,
bomb blasts, bandhs, killings on an everyday basis. So much happened in
these areas that three generation of youths misguided by their own ideals
and cheated by an extremely corrupt government making money through
security-terror apparatus. Some said there were Chinese training north
eastern youths, others said it was the lack of development. Do you think it
was the lack of development that forced Assamese youths to take up arms
against the state? This is coming from a state, where the first oil refinery
and an already existing tea industry was there before India got
independence. So was it degeneration in a phased manner adopted by
successive governments in Assam that lead to this insurgency? And now when I
say this, you will say i am tarnishing the image of north eastern states.
People like you are the enemies of the nation, who are ready to do cover ups
for any political outfit at the slight provocation.
Anupam
Post by Bipin Trivedi
Bhagalpur massacre didn't tarnish the image of Bihar, Shikh killing didn't
tarnish the image of Delhi/India, Mumbai bomb blast followed by the riots
didn't tarnished the image of Mumbai/Maharashtra. These are few can be
listed many such more, but only Gujarat riots tarnished the image of
Gujarat!!! For argument also normally everyone use Gujarat name only.
However, this much hatred of Gujarat will not at all affect its development
and prosperity, since Gujarati's are very soft and sober and never show
hatred for anyone.
Thanks
Bipin
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 10:35 AM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi; sarai-list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
It seems Modi has got further additions to his list of those who want to
brag about the 'image of Gujarat'. Anyways, the very same Modi didn't
realize that post-Godhra pogrom also tarnished the image of Gujarat.
Rakesh
Thanks Dear Rajen for your consent and views.
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:32 PM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: sarai-list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Bipin,
you have hit where it really sticks out, media men and women seem to have
strange hate for Narendra Modi and very affectionate love for Sonia, in the
process, the more the hate is spread, the voters in Gujarath are giving
thumbs up to Modi, and for sure, they know best, as they have seen the
governance rendered by the Nehru, his minions later, India the india and her
Rajiv and now Sonia and her minions.!
regards,
Rajen.
Forwarding herewith reply received from Indira Hirway against my objection
for her article in the Hindu.
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:01 AM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Subject: Re: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Dear Mr. Bipin Trivedi,
I was away and therefore seen your mail only today. It is an interesting
mail!
I do not know you, but it will be nice to talk. Can we meet or talk?  My
mobile is                        . I am located in Ahmedabad.
Best wishes,
Indira Hirway
Subject: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Date: Saturday, March 20, 2010, 4:51 PM
The Editor
Hindu Business Line
I refer to article by Dr. Indira Hirway in Hindu Business Line on Gujarat
economy sustains growth; human development index falls Feb. 25, 2010.
You are mentioning report of the period 1993 to 2005 in 2010 and
highlighting the issue. Do you have current figure or figure upto March 2009
of the same or even upto March 2008? How can you highlight 4 years old news?
Gujarat has much changed thereafter. Please be updated and publish
accordingly.
Gujarat is on very much development path even in the HDI parameters also.
Please search latest figure and publish accordingly and stop tarnishing
Gujarat image just because Narendra Modi will not get credit. I am not
belonging to any political party and not fan of Narendra Modi but I am fan
of development, whoever does it.
Actually you are indirectly helping Narendra Modi popularity in Gujarati
people by repeating attempts of tarnishing Gujarat image.
Thanks
Bipin Trivedi
_________________________________________
reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
Critiques & Collaborations
in the subject header.
To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
--
Rajen.
_________________________________________
reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
Critiques & Collaborations
in the subject header.
To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
_________________________________________
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Critiques & Collaborations
subscribe in the subject header.
To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
_________________________________________
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Critiques & Collaborations
To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
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Critiques & Collaborations
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Rakesh Iyer
2010-04-13 09:04:23 UTC
Permalink
Dear Bipin

Any riot tarnishes the image of that place, but our concern should not be
just image (image is a concern, particularly when the place is a tourist hot
spot and because of communal riots or pogroms like Gujarat, Bhagalpur or
Delhi lead to people not going there and tourism sector being hit,
impoverishing the local people).

Our concern should be that the rights of innocents have been trampled upon,
and our efforts must be directed towards securing those rights for those
people. What has Narendra Modi done in the last 8 years in this direction?
Only once did he visit the camps where Muslims had to flee to after the
pogrom, that too when the then PM came visiting the state. Didn't he have
any time to visit the camps? He is supposed to be the Chief Minister of 5.5
crore Gujaratis, doesn't he have time to visit the Gujaratis among whom he
keeps chanting that he is not Chief Minister, but Common Man.

Everybody by the way is talking about Gujarati asmita. Because of the pogrom
he presided over, Indian asmita was under threat and infact torn to shreds.
Infact, Vajpayee and Advani had to save their faces on their foreign trips
as the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister after this pogrom simply
because everywhere they went, this became a matter of discussion. Does India
deserve to get its' asmita torn to shreds because of someone's selfishness
in playing Hindu-Muslim vote bank politics and organizing pogroms?

Isn't Narendra Modi responsible for attacking Indian asmita?

And don't ask questions here about Delhi and Bhagalpur not having attacked
Indian asmita too. They too have attacked, and so has post-Godhra pogrom.
And they can't hide behind that, none of them, because they are all wrongs.

And for me that is still not a concern. The concern is that Sikhs and
Muslims have had to pay with their lives even though they were not
responsible for Godhra or Indira Gandhi assassination.

Rakesh
_________________________________________
reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
Critiques & Collaborations
To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-***@sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.
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Pawan Durani
2010-04-13 09:06:17 UTC
Permalink
Dear Rakesh,

The demonising of Narender Bhai has been done by the sickulars. Why
didnt they do the same to lt Gandhi or Abdullahs of this world ?

Pawan
Post by Rakesh Iyer
Dear Bipin
Any riot tarnishes the image of that place, but our concern should not be
just image (image is a concern, particularly when the place is a tourist hot
spot and because of communal riots or pogroms like Gujarat, Bhagalpur or
Delhi lead to people not going there and tourism sector being hit,
impoverishing the local people).
Our concern should be that the rights of innocents have been trampled upon,
and our efforts must be directed towards securing those rights for those
people. What has Narendra Modi done in the last 8 years in this direction?
Only once did he visit the camps where Muslims had to flee to after the
pogrom, that too when the then PM came visiting the state. Didn't he have
any time to visit the camps? He is supposed to be the Chief Minister of 5.5
crore Gujaratis, doesn't he have time to visit the Gujaratis among whom he
keeps chanting that he is not Chief Minister, but Common Man.
Everybody by the way is talking about Gujarati asmita. Because of the pogrom
he presided over, Indian asmita was under threat and infact torn to shreds.
Infact, Vajpayee and Advani had to save their faces on their foreign trips
as the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister after this pogrom simply
because everywhere they went, this became a matter of discussion. Does India
deserve to get its' asmita torn to shreds because of someone's selfishness
in playing Hindu-Muslim vote bank politics and organizing pogroms?
Isn't Narendra Modi responsible for attacking Indian asmita?
And don't ask questions here about Delhi and Bhagalpur not having attacked
Indian asmita too. They too have attacked, and so has post-Godhra pogrom.
And they can't hide behind that, none of them, because they are all wrongs.
And for me that is still not a concern. The concern is that Sikhs and
Muslims have had to pay with their lives even though they were not
responsible for Godhra or Indira Gandhi assassination.
Rakesh
_________________________________________
reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
Critiques & Collaborations
To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-***@sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.
To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
List archive: &lt;https://ma
Rakesh Iyer
2010-04-13 09:07:58 UTC
Permalink
Dear Pawan

I am not a 'sickular'. So how come I am supposed to know why a Gandhi or an
Abdullah has not been or has been criticized by these 'sickulars'?

Rakesh
Post by Pawan Durani
Dear Rakesh,
The demonising of Narender Bhai has been done by the sickulars. Why
didnt they do the same to lt Gandhi or Abdullahs of this world ?
Pawan
Post by Rakesh Iyer
Dear Bipin
Any riot tarnishes the image of that place, but our concern should not be
just image (image is a concern, particularly when the place is a tourist
hot
Post by Rakesh Iyer
spot and because of communal riots or pogroms like Gujarat, Bhagalpur or
Delhi lead to people not going there and tourism sector being hit,
impoverishing the local people).
Our concern should be that the rights of innocents have been trampled
upon,
Post by Rakesh Iyer
and our efforts must be directed towards securing those rights for those
people. What has Narendra Modi done in the last 8 years in this
direction?
Post by Rakesh Iyer
Only once did he visit the camps where Muslims had to flee to after the
pogrom, that too when the then PM came visiting the state. Didn't he have
any time to visit the camps? He is supposed to be the Chief Minister of
5.5
Post by Rakesh Iyer
crore Gujaratis, doesn't he have time to visit the Gujaratis among whom
he
Post by Rakesh Iyer
keeps chanting that he is not Chief Minister, but Common Man.
Everybody by the way is talking about Gujarati asmita. Because of the
pogrom
Post by Rakesh Iyer
he presided over, Indian asmita was under threat and infact torn to
shreds.
Post by Rakesh Iyer
Infact, Vajpayee and Advani had to save their faces on their foreign
trips
Post by Rakesh Iyer
as the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister after this pogrom
simply
Post by Rakesh Iyer
because everywhere they went, this became a matter of discussion. Does
India
Post by Rakesh Iyer
deserve to get its' asmita torn to shreds because of someone's
selfishness
Post by Rakesh Iyer
in playing Hindu-Muslim vote bank politics and organizing pogroms?
Isn't Narendra Modi responsible for attacking Indian asmita?
And don't ask questions here about Delhi and Bhagalpur not having
attacked
Post by Rakesh Iyer
Indian asmita too. They too have attacked, and so has post-Godhra pogrom.
And they can't hide behind that, none of them, because they are all
wrongs.
Post by Rakesh Iyer
And for me that is still not a concern. The concern is that Sikhs and
Muslims have had to pay with their lives even though they were not
responsible for Godhra or Indira Gandhi assassination.
Rakesh
_________________________________________
reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
Critiques & Collaborations
To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-***@sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.
To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-lis
Bipin Trivedi
2010-04-13 09:45:01 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for your compliments and describing me as enemy of the nation. God
bless you.





From: anupam chakravartty [mailto:***@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 12:53 PM
To: Bipin Trivedi; sarai list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE



Bipin,

It is has been only Mr Narendra Modi, the Chief Minister of Gujarat, who
thinks that anything being said against BJP Gujarat or BJP-ruled government
is against Gujarati people. Gujarat has more people than you think you know,
Bipin. Hence, your statement also proves that you do not know anything about
the glory of Gujarat. Your very sense of Gujarat begins with Modi and ends
with Modi. There are documented evidences since 2002 pogrom that it was Mr
Modi in his speech and actions have been accusing everyone for tarnishing
the image of Gujarat. As a political leader, if he feels so, he has every
right to engage in such a discourse. But the fact, that there are parallel
political discourses in Gujarat that cannot be undermined and I am sure when
they voice their concerns about state government or its organs, they are not
tarnishing its image but working towards a better, a more tolerant and a
democratic Gujarat.

You have been abashedly using this slogan about Gujarat's image being
tarnished as if you have inherited the legacy of this state. When a certain
section of people demand their rights or hope for justice, you cannot twist
it and turn it against its own people by deeming their protests as a move to
tarnish the image of Gujarat. When people from Vapi in South Gujarat or
Ankleshwar voice their concerns about pollution, these are residents of
these areas who suffer from it. It is Manish Tandel, the fisherman, AND NOT
ME OR YOU who has to go all the way to Porbander from Navsari, even though
sea is on his backyard. For Tandel, finding his catch is his only concern
more than the risk of getting kidnapped by Somali pirates in the high seas
or straying on to the waters of Pakistan or his dinghy washed away by
torrential storms. Have you wondered why thousands of fishermen from Navsari
and Valsad district have to go 800 kilometres every six months to Porbander?


Iqbal Hasan Mamdu, visually impaired since birth has spent eight years
inside a prison -- first accused as a terrorist for burning a train, then
when POTA was repealed now waiting for his trial. When Modi says there are
no jails in India fit for him to be imprisoned, he is right. The jails in
Gujarat, as admitted by Gujarat Home Minister, Amit Shah, himself on the
floor of the Gujarat State Assembly, are overcrowded with prisoners.

Eight years back, on Feb 27, when Satish Mishra's wife was exhumed by the
flames of fire of a train, that allegedly changed the course of history for
Gujarat, health officials could not confirm if his wife was missing or dead.
While, local VHP offices immediately branded her as a martyr, a karsevak
from Ayodhya and put her posters in their offices. Was it Mishra's decision
to send his daughter from Vadodara to Sultanpur in UP to spend rest of her
childhood with her grandparents, while he waited for one fact finding
commission after the another to confirm his exact statement as an eyewitness
of the tragedy?

What happens to Member of Gujarat Legislative Assembly, Kanu Kalsaria? He is
very much a part of the BJP when he raised objections to a privately owned
detergent manufacturing plant being set up in his village because that would
take all the water meant for the animals and people. Is he tarnishing the
image of Gujarat by raising objection to the construction of a industry?

Actually, what is your fascination with image Bipin? you and Pawan Durani
have been harping about this one elusive thing called image. Do you mean to
say, the seeming is true and what does not appear is not? Your politics is
such that it will only touch on the issues which are seemingly existent, but
about the issues which have been pushed under the carpet, it can wait and
rot.

Although, now I do not have a home per se, I grew up in this little town in
Assam the north eastern part of India. There was a point of time, when about
70 extremist groups were operating from that region organising protests,
bomb blasts, bandhs, killings on an everyday basis. So much happened in
these areas that three generation of youths misguided by their own ideals
and cheated by an extremely corrupt government making money through
security-terror apparatus. Some said there were Chinese training north
eastern youths, others said it was the lack of development. Do you think it
was the lack of development that forced Assamese youths to take up arms
against the state? This is coming from a state, where the first oil refinery
and an already existing tea industry was there before India got
independence. So was it degeneration in a phased manner adopted by
successive governments in Assam that lead to this insurgency? And now when I
say this, you will say i am tarnishing the image of north eastern states.

People like you are the enemies of the nation, who are ready to do cover ups
for any political outfit at the slight provocation.

Anupam






On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 10:59 AM, Bipin Trivedi <***@dataone.in> wrote:

Bhagalpur massacre didn't tarnish the image of Bihar, Shikh killing didn't
tarnish the image of Delhi/India, Mumbai bomb blast followed by the riots
didn't tarnished the image of Mumbai/Maharashtra. These are few can be
listed many such more, but only Gujarat riots tarnished the image of
Gujarat!!! For argument also normally everyone use Gujarat name only.



However, this much hatred of Gujarat will not at all affect its development
and prosperity, since Gujarati's are very soft and sober and never show
hatred for anyone.



Thanks

Bipin





From: Rakesh Iyer [mailto:***@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 10:35 AM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi; sarai-list

Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE



It seems Modi has got further additions to his list of those who want to
brag about the 'image of Gujarat'. Anyways, the very same Modi didn't
realize that post-Godhra pogrom also tarnished the image of Gujarat.

Rakesh

On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 10:32 AM, Bipin Trivedi <***@dataone.in> wrote:

Thanks Dear Rajen for your consent and views.





From: Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi [mailto:***@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:32 PM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: sarai-list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE




Bipin,

you have hit where it really sticks out, media men and women seem to have
strange hate for Narendra Modi and very affectionate love for Sonia, in the
process, the more the hate is spread, the voters in Gujarath are giving
thumbs up to Modi, and for sure, they know best, as they have seen the
governance rendered by the Nehru, his minions later, India the india and her
Rajiv and now Sonia and her minions.!

regards,

Rajen.

On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 10:43 AM, Bipin Trivedi <***@dataone.in> wrote:

Forwarding herewith reply received from Indira Hirway against my objection
for her article in the Hindu.





From: Indira Hirway [mailto:***@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:01 AM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Subject: Re: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE




Dear Mr. Bipin Trivedi,



I was away and therefore seen your mail only today. It is an interesting
mail!

I do not know you, but it will be nice to talk. Can we meet or talk? My
mobile is . I am located in Ahmedabad.



Best wishes,



Indira Hirway



--- On Sat, 3/20/10, Bipin Trivedi <***@dataone.in> wrote:


From: Bipin Trivedi <***@dataone.in>
Subject: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
To: ***@thehindu.co.in
Cc: ***@cfda.ac.in, ***@yahoo.com
Date: Saturday, March 20, 2010, 4:51 PM

The Editor

Hindu Business Line



I refer to article by Dr. Indira Hirway in Hindu Business Line on Gujarat
economy sustains growth; human development index falls Feb. 25, 2010.



You are mentioning report of the period 1993 to 2005 in 2010 and
highlighting the issue. Do you have current figure or figure upto March 2009
of the same or even upto March 2008? How can you highlight 4 years old news?
Gujarat has much changed thereafter. Please be updated and publish
accordingly.



Gujarat is on very much development path even in the HDI parameters also.
Please search latest figure and publish accordingly and stop tarnishing
Gujarat image just because Narendra Modi will not get credit. I am not
belonging to any political party and not fan of Narendra Modi but I am fan
of development, whoever does it.



Actually you are indirectly helping Narendra Modi popularity in Gujarati
people by repeating attempts of tarnishing Gujarat image.



Thanks

Bipin Trivedi





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Pawan Durani
2010-04-13 09:47:15 UTC
Permalink
Dear Bipin Ji,

It would be interesting to know how 'they' define NATION.

Pawan
Post by Bipin Trivedi
Thanks for your compliments and describing me as enemy of the nation. God
bless you.
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 12:53 PM
To: Bipin Trivedi; sarai list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Bipin,
It is has been only Mr Narendra Modi, the Chief Minister of Gujarat, who
thinks that anything being said against BJP Gujarat or BJP-ruled government
is against Gujarati people. Gujarat has more people than you think you know,
Bipin. Hence, your statement also proves that you do not know anything about
the glory of Gujarat. Your very sense of Gujarat begins with Modi and ends
with Modi. There are documented evidences since 2002 pogrom that it was Mr
Modi in his speech and actions have been accusing everyone for tarnishing
the image of Gujarat. As a political leader, if he feels so, he has every
right to engage in such a discourse. But the fact, that there are parallel
political discourses in Gujarat that cannot be undermined and I am sure when
they voice their concerns about state government or its organs, they are not
tarnishing its image but working towards a better, a more tolerant and a
democratic Gujarat.
You have been abashedly using this slogan about Gujarat's image being
tarnished as if you have inherited the legacy of this state. When a certain
section of people demand their rights or hope for justice, you cannot twist
it and turn it against its own people by deeming their protests as a move to
tarnish the image of Gujarat. When people from Vapi in South Gujarat or
Ankleshwar voice their concerns about pollution, these are residents of
these areas who suffer from it. It is Manish Tandel, the fisherman, AND NOT
ME OR YOU who has to go all the way to Porbander from Navsari, even though
sea is on his backyard. For Tandel, finding his catch is his only concern
more than the risk of getting kidnapped by Somali pirates in the high seas
or straying on to the waters of Pakistan or his dinghy washed away by
torrential storms. Have you wondered why thousands of fishermen from Navsari
and Valsad district have to go 800 kilometres every six months to Porbander?
Iqbal Hasan Mamdu, visually impaired since birth has spent eight years
inside a prison -- first accused as a terrorist for burning a train, then
when POTA was repealed now waiting for his trial. When Modi says there are
no jails in India fit for him to be imprisoned, he is right. The jails in
Gujarat, as admitted by Gujarat Home Minister, Amit Shah, himself on the
floor of the Gujarat State Assembly, are overcrowded with prisoners.
Eight years back, on Feb 27, when Satish Mishra's wife was exhumed by the
flames of fire of a train, that allegedly changed the course of history for
Gujarat, health officials could not confirm if his wife was missing or dead.
While, local VHP offices immediately branded her as a martyr, a karsevak
from Ayodhya and put her posters in their offices. Was it Mishra's decision
to send his daughter from Vadodara to Sultanpur in UP to spend rest of her
childhood with her grandparents, while he waited for one fact finding
commission after the another to confirm his exact statement as an eyewitness
of the tragedy?
What happens to Member of Gujarat Legislative Assembly, Kanu Kalsaria? He is
very much a part of the BJP when he raised objections to a privately owned
detergent manufacturing plant being set up in his village because that would
take all the water meant for the animals and people. Is he tarnishing the
image of Gujarat by raising objection to the construction of a industry?
Actually, what is your fascination with image Bipin? you and Pawan Durani
have been harping about this one elusive thing called image. Do you mean to
say, the seeming is true and what does not appear is not? Your politics is
such that it will only touch on the issues which are seemingly existent, but
about the issues which have been pushed under the carpet, it can wait and
rot.
Although, now I do not have a home per se, I grew up in this little town in
Assam the north eastern part of India. There was a point of time, when about
70 extremist groups were operating from that region organising protests,
bomb blasts, bandhs, killings on an everyday basis. So much happened in
these areas that three generation of youths misguided by their own ideals
and cheated by an extremely corrupt government making money through
security-terror apparatus. Some said there were Chinese training north
eastern youths, others said it was the lack of development. Do you think it
was the lack of development that forced Assamese youths to take up arms
against the state? This is coming from a state, where the first oil refinery
and an already existing tea industry was there before India got
independence. So was it degeneration in a phased manner adopted by
successive governments in Assam that lead to this insurgency? And now when I
say this, you will say i am tarnishing the image of north eastern states.
People like you are the enemies of the nation, who are ready to do cover ups
for any political outfit at the slight provocation.
Anupam
Bhagalpur massacre didn't tarnish the image of Bihar, Shikh killing didn't
tarnish the image of Delhi/India, Mumbai bomb blast followed by the riots
didn't tarnished the image of Mumbai/Maharashtra. These are few can be
listed many such more, but only Gujarat riots tarnished the image of
Gujarat!!! For argument also normally everyone use Gujarat name only.
However, this much hatred of Gujarat will not at all affect its development
and prosperity, since Gujarati's are very soft and sober and never show
hatred for anyone.
Thanks
Bipin
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 10:35 AM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi; sarai-list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
It seems Modi has got further additions to his list of those who want to
brag about the 'image of Gujarat'. Anyways, the very same Modi didn't
realize that post-Godhra pogrom also tarnished the image of Gujarat.
Rakesh
Thanks Dear Rajen for your consent and views.
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:32 PM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: sarai-list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Bipin,
you have hit where it really sticks out, media men and women seem to have
strange hate for Narendra Modi and very affectionate love for Sonia, in the
process, the more the hate is spread, the voters in Gujarath are giving
thumbs up to Modi, and for sure, they know best, as they have seen the
governance rendered by the Nehru, his minions later, India the india and her
Rajiv and now Sonia and her minions.!
regards,
Rajen.
Forwarding herewith reply received from Indira Hirway against my objection
for her article in the Hindu.
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:01 AM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Subject: Re: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Dear Mr. Bipin Trivedi,
I was away and therefore seen your mail only today. It is an interesting
mail!
I do not know you, but it will be nice to talk. Can we meet or talk?  My
mobile is                        . I am located in Ahmedabad.
Best wishes,
Indira Hirway
Subject: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Date: Saturday, March 20, 2010, 4:51 PM
The Editor
Hindu Business Line
I refer to article by Dr. Indira Hirway in Hindu Business Line on Gujarat
economy sustains growth; human development index falls Feb. 25, 2010.
You are mentioning report of the period 1993 to 2005 in 2010 and
highlighting the issue. Do you have current figure or figure upto March 2009
of the same or even upto March 2008? How can you highlight 4 years old news?
Gujarat has much changed thereafter. Please be updated and publish
accordingly.
Gujarat is on very much development path even in the HDI parameters also.
Please search latest figure and publish accordingly and stop tarnishing
Gujarat image just because Narendra Modi will not get credit. I am not
belonging to any political party and not fan of Narendra Modi but I am fan
of development, whoever does it.
Actually you are indirectly helping Narendra Modi popularity in Gujarati
people by repeating attempts of tarnishing Gujarat image.
Thanks
Bipin Trivedi
_________________________________________
reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
Critiques & Collaborations
in the subject header.
To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
--
Rajen.
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Critiques & Collaborations
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anupam chakravartty
2010-04-13 09:53:48 UTC
Permalink
Pawan Durrani and Bipin Trivedi,

Either you take it or leave it. No more discussions with you both. If you
have the guts, trying answering certain questions that has been posed to
you.

Moreover, both of you have committed treason against people of gujarat by
hiding their real issues. i appeal the list members to boycott your posts
here.

Anupam
Post by Pawan Durani
Dear Bipin Ji,
It would be interesting to know how 'they' define NATION.
Pawan
Post by Bipin Trivedi
Thanks for your compliments and describing me as enemy of the nation. God
bless you.
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 12:53 PM
To: Bipin Trivedi; sarai list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Bipin,
It is has been only Mr Narendra Modi, the Chief Minister of Gujarat, who
thinks that anything being said against BJP Gujarat or BJP-ruled
government
Post by Bipin Trivedi
is against Gujarati people. Gujarat has more people than you think you
know,
Post by Bipin Trivedi
Bipin. Hence, your statement also proves that you do not know anything
about
Post by Bipin Trivedi
the glory of Gujarat. Your very sense of Gujarat begins with Modi and
ends
Post by Bipin Trivedi
with Modi. There are documented evidences since 2002 pogrom that it was
Mr
Post by Bipin Trivedi
Modi in his speech and actions have been accusing everyone for tarnishing
the image of Gujarat. As a political leader, if he feels so, he has every
right to engage in such a discourse. But the fact, that there are
parallel
Post by Bipin Trivedi
political discourses in Gujarat that cannot be undermined and I am sure
when
Post by Bipin Trivedi
they voice their concerns about state government or its organs, they are
not
Post by Bipin Trivedi
tarnishing its image but working towards a better, a more tolerant and a
democratic Gujarat.
You have been abashedly using this slogan about Gujarat's image being
tarnished as if you have inherited the legacy of this state. When a
certain
Post by Bipin Trivedi
section of people demand their rights or hope for justice, you cannot
twist
Post by Bipin Trivedi
it and turn it against its own people by deeming their protests as a move
to
Post by Bipin Trivedi
tarnish the image of Gujarat. When people from Vapi in South Gujarat or
Ankleshwar voice their concerns about pollution, these are residents of
these areas who suffer from it. It is Manish Tandel, the fisherman, AND
NOT
Post by Bipin Trivedi
ME OR YOU who has to go all the way to Porbander from Navsari, even
though
Post by Bipin Trivedi
sea is on his backyard. For Tandel, finding his catch is his only concern
more than the risk of getting kidnapped by Somali pirates in the high
seas
Post by Bipin Trivedi
or straying on to the waters of Pakistan or his dinghy washed away by
torrential storms. Have you wondered why thousands of fishermen from
Navsari
Post by Bipin Trivedi
and Valsad district have to go 800 kilometres every six months to
Porbander?
Post by Bipin Trivedi
Iqbal Hasan Mamdu, visually impaired since birth has spent eight years
inside a prison -- first accused as a terrorist for burning a train, then
when POTA was repealed now waiting for his trial. When Modi says there
are
Post by Bipin Trivedi
no jails in India fit for him to be imprisoned, he is right. The jails in
Gujarat, as admitted by Gujarat Home Minister, Amit Shah, himself on the
floor of the Gujarat State Assembly, are overcrowded with prisoners.
Eight years back, on Feb 27, when Satish Mishra's wife was exhumed by the
flames of fire of a train, that allegedly changed the course of history
for
Post by Bipin Trivedi
Gujarat, health officials could not confirm if his wife was missing or
dead.
Post by Bipin Trivedi
While, local VHP offices immediately branded her as a martyr, a karsevak
from Ayodhya and put her posters in their offices. Was it Mishra's
decision
Post by Bipin Trivedi
to send his daughter from Vadodara to Sultanpur in UP to spend rest of
her
Post by Bipin Trivedi
childhood with her grandparents, while he waited for one fact finding
commission after the another to confirm his exact statement as an
eyewitness
Post by Bipin Trivedi
of the tragedy?
What happens to Member of Gujarat Legislative Assembly, Kanu Kalsaria? He
is
Post by Bipin Trivedi
very much a part of the BJP when he raised objections to a privately
owned
Post by Bipin Trivedi
detergent manufacturing plant being set up in his village because that
would
Post by Bipin Trivedi
take all the water meant for the animals and people. Is he tarnishing the
image of Gujarat by raising objection to the construction of a industry?
Actually, what is your fascination with image Bipin? you and Pawan Durani
have been harping about this one elusive thing called image. Do you mean
to
Post by Bipin Trivedi
say, the seeming is true and what does not appear is not? Your politics
is
Post by Bipin Trivedi
such that it will only touch on the issues which are seemingly existent,
but
Post by Bipin Trivedi
about the issues which have been pushed under the carpet, it can wait and
rot.
Although, now I do not have a home per se, I grew up in this little town
in
Post by Bipin Trivedi
Assam the north eastern part of India. There was a point of time, when
about
Post by Bipin Trivedi
70 extremist groups were operating from that region organising protests,
bomb blasts, bandhs, killings on an everyday basis. So much happened in
these areas that three generation of youths misguided by their own ideals
and cheated by an extremely corrupt government making money through
security-terror apparatus. Some said there were Chinese training north
eastern youths, others said it was the lack of development. Do you think
it
Post by Bipin Trivedi
was the lack of development that forced Assamese youths to take up arms
against the state? This is coming from a state, where the first oil
refinery
Post by Bipin Trivedi
and an already existing tea industry was there before India got
independence. So was it degeneration in a phased manner adopted by
successive governments in Assam that lead to this insurgency? And now
when I
Post by Bipin Trivedi
say this, you will say i am tarnishing the image of north eastern states.
People like you are the enemies of the nation, who are ready to do cover
ups
Post by Bipin Trivedi
for any political outfit at the slight provocation.
Anupam
Bhagalpur massacre didn't tarnish the image of Bihar, Shikh killing
didn't
Post by Bipin Trivedi
tarnish the image of Delhi/India, Mumbai bomb blast followed by the riots
didn't tarnished the image of Mumbai/Maharashtra. These are few can be
listed many such more, but only Gujarat riots tarnished the image of
Gujarat!!! For argument also normally everyone use Gujarat name only.
However, this much hatred of Gujarat will not at all affect its
development
Post by Bipin Trivedi
and prosperity, since Gujarati's are very soft and sober and never show
hatred for anyone.
Thanks
Bipin
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 10:35 AM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi; sarai-list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
It seems Modi has got further additions to his list of those who want to
brag about the 'image of Gujarat'. Anyways, the very same Modi didn't
realize that post-Godhra pogrom also tarnished the image of Gujarat.
Rakesh
Thanks Dear Rajen for your consent and views.
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:32 PM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: sarai-list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Bipin,
you have hit where it really sticks out, media men and women seem to have
strange hate for Narendra Modi and very affectionate love for Sonia, in
the
Post by Bipin Trivedi
process, the more the hate is spread, the voters in Gujarath are giving
thumbs up to Modi, and for sure, they know best, as they have seen the
governance rendered by the Nehru, his minions later, India the india and
her
Post by Bipin Trivedi
Rajiv and now Sonia and her minions.!
regards,
Rajen.
Forwarding herewith reply received from Indira Hirway against my
objection
Post by Bipin Trivedi
for her article in the Hindu.
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:01 AM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Subject: Re: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Dear Mr. Bipin Trivedi,
I was away and therefore seen your mail only today. It is an interesting
mail!
I do not know you, but it will be nice to talk. Can we meet or talk? My
mobile is . I am located in Ahmedabad.
Best wishes,
Indira Hirway
Subject: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Date: Saturday, March 20, 2010, 4:51 PM
The Editor
Hindu Business Line
I refer to article by Dr. Indira Hirway in Hindu Business Line on Gujarat
economy sustains growth; human development index falls Feb. 25, 2010.
You are mentioning report of the period 1993 to 2005 in 2010 and
highlighting the issue. Do you have current figure or figure upto March
2009
Post by Bipin Trivedi
of the same or even upto March 2008? How can you highlight 4 years old
news?
Post by Bipin Trivedi
Gujarat has much changed thereafter. Please be updated and publish
accordingly.
Gujarat is on very much development path even in the HDI parameters also.
Please search latest figure and publish accordingly and stop tarnishing
Gujarat image just because Narendra Modi will not get credit. I am not
belonging to any political party and not fan of Narendra Modi but I am
fan
Post by Bipin Trivedi
of development, whoever does it.
Actually you are indirectly helping Narendra Modi popularity in Gujarati
people by repeating attempts of tarnishing Gujarat image.
Thanks
Bipin Trivedi
_________________________________________
reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
Critiques & Collaborations
subscribe
Post by Bipin Trivedi
in the subject header.
To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
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--
Rajen.
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anupam chakravartty
2010-04-13 14:21:07 UTC
Permalink
I think you have warped ideas about the word 'boycott'. i am not talking
about boycotting Bipin or Pawan but such agendas with tagline which are
misleading. it has happened quite a few times on this list.

it is my appeal, it depends on the other readers as well. i do not think
there is any need for me to give a certificate about my ideas of nation to
you and others. the questions pertains to some of the issues which have been
laboriously discussed by both the sides. they are of very particular nature
which can be addressed without making a sweeping statement about the nation
or ideas of nation.

as far as i know definition of nation of late has been reduced to a ration
card, a PAN card, a passport and inner line permits in some cases and in
some other cases, complete no entry, a few holidays or bandhs depending on
which side of the nation you are. there are others who say that they feel
extremely indebted to the nation when they walk past India Gate or Raj Ghat.
others click their pictures and form personal associations while visiting
these places. there are others who complain about pickpockets lurking about
major national monuments. and many more who duplicate the national symbol
using fake inks and sell stamp papers to acquire land. sometimes nation is
just a notion, on other occasions it is a manifestation of the hubris. a
nation cannot be a monument or a commodity, it is about the people. it is a
dynamic entity.

anupam
Dear Anupam
First of all, I believe that howsoever much we may not agree with each
other, boycott is not a solution. Boycott can be a solution against the
govt. to force it to agree to your views, but this kind of boycott will only
lead later to fascism. Tomorrow, people may start boycotting those whose
views may be right but are not agreed to by majority of the people. That is
wrong.
Views are there, and if they are wrong, one should try to show people why
they are wrong. If they are not willing to accept it, let it be. Boycott can
never change a person.
*People change. They do. But don't force them to. *
As for them not answering questions, they too have asked a question to me
What do we mean by a nation? I guess I have to think it out properly.
With regards,
Rakesh
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Rakesh Iyer
2010-04-13 15:35:06 UTC
Permalink
Well said Anupam. You are not answerable to me or anyone, but stating what
you did in the last mail is important for the sake of discussions to get our
point across, I feel.

And Rajen jee, it was a shoe thrown by a journalist (even if a Sikh one)
which forced the Congress to state that Jagdish Tytler and Sajjan Kumar
would not contest elections. The media was then not active and has not
covered it simply because in 1984 there was only one state channel,
Doordarshan. Today those issues must be covered. And those issues to an
extent have been covered by today's media. The fact is that if this same
media had existed then and Rajiv Gandhi would have been forced to appear
before a SIT, as someone said, Narendra Modi and his band of goons and
cohorts would never have had the courage to perpetrate violence on the
innocent people of Gujarat.

Besides, I don't feel proud in killing and raping innocents, as I simply
don't think that's an act of pride. But then when someone states that Modi
should also believe in the same or asks him as to why doesn't he condemn it,
he says it is an act to defame Gujarat. What about defaming India, which he
did convincingly before the entire world, going by his argument?

Anyways, image and image building is an exercise only for the politicians. I
feel we should bother about the people whose rights have been trampled
upon. Let's concentrate on that instead, be it Delhi or Bhagalpur, Bombay
or Gujarat.

Rakesh
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anupam chakravartty
2010-04-14 06:16:00 UTC
Permalink
http://twocircles.net/2010apr13/bjp_and_congress_dock_communal_violence.html

BJP and Congress in the Dock for Communal ViolenceBy Ram Puniyani

Excerpts:

"Whenever BJP is caught with blood on its hands or doing partiality or
discrimination the first thing it does is to deflect the issue by citing
other cases with some parallels. If one talks of rehabilitation for victims
of communal violence, the rhetoric is what about Kashmiri Pundits? As if two
wrongs make a right! The comparison of Gujarat carnage is immediately done
with the anti Sikh pogrom of 1984. Of course there are lot of similarities
between the anti Sikh pogrom and the anti Muslim Gujarat carnage, but there
are many a differences also. By all accounts it seems the anti Sikh pogrom;
equally tragic was a spontaneous one while Gujarat carnage in all
probability was a preplanned one, using the train burning of Godhra as a
pretext for the violence. The dead bodies of victims of train burning were
deliberately paraded on the streets of Ahmedabad, under full glare of TV
cameras, top level meetings were held instructing officers concerned to let
the Hindus vent their anger and the rest is too well known to be recounted."

thanks Anupam
Post by Rakesh Iyer
Well said Anupam. You are not answerable to me or anyone, but stating what
you did in the last mail is important for the sake of discussions to get our
point across, I feel.
And Rajen jee, it was a shoe thrown by a journalist (even if a Sikh one)
which forced the Congress to state that Jagdish Tytler and Sajjan Kumar
would not contest elections. The media was then not active and has not
covered it simply because in 1984 there was only one state channel,
Doordarshan. Today those issues must be covered. And those issues to an
extent have been covered by today's media. The fact is that if this same
media had existed then and Rajiv Gandhi would have been forced to appear
before a SIT, as someone said, Narendra Modi and his band of goons and
cohorts would never have had the courage to perpetrate violence on the
innocent people of Gujarat.
Besides, I don't feel proud in killing and raping innocents, as I simply
don't think that's an act of pride. But then when someone states that Modi
should also believe in the same or asks him as to why doesn't he condemn it,
he says it is an act to defame Gujarat. What about defaming India, which he
did convincingly before the entire world, going by his argument?
Anyways, image and image building is an exercise only for the politicians.
I feel we should bother about the people whose rights have been trampled
upon. Let's concentrate on that instead, be it Delhi or Bhagalpur, Bombay
or Gujarat.
Rakesh
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Rakesh Iyer
2010-04-13 09:50:59 UTC
Permalink
Dear Bipin

I have never said that you are the 'enemy' of a nation, be it any nation
including ours. My thoughts are based on the assumption that you are
misguided or believe in wrong things but are not a bad human being who
selfishly propagats things while not believing in an iota of them.

The day you do so, you are not just enemy of a nation, but of the humankind.


Rakesh
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Bipin Trivedi
2010-04-13 10:27:14 UTC
Permalink
Misguiding or believing wrong things in your eye does not mean, that I
believe or argue is absolutely wrong. Let others decide whether my
arguments/belief are wrong or right.



Nothing I am writing here with anybody's guidance. I never met even single
politician in my life accept late Mr. Haren Pandya that is also as his
friend's neighbor. Yes I am not believe in much of these surveys or datas
(since bearing a few most of them) I know how it can be fractured and can be
derived own way. What I am writing with my instinct and general knowledge
and even I do not have much time to search the datas/sites. That's why
someone posting the good site link worth to read, I always thank/appreciate
him.



Since I am worrying for my nation, so I share my thought as neutral way to
put before public in forums like sarai. I never forced to believe in my
thoughts. With my posting, many might believe that I am BJP man or soft
corner with BJP. This is not true. But, what I fill that congress vote bank
politics harmed the country more than its good work whatever did since
today. What BJP did tit for tat to counter congress politics and when came
to power at the centre, they did not come with any single step which harmful
for any community.







From: Rakesh Iyer [mailto:***@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 3:21 PM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: anupam chakravartty; sarai-list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE



Dear Bipin

I have never said that you are the 'enemy' of a nation, be it any nation
including ours. My thoughts are based on the assumption that you are
misguided or believe in wrong things but are not a bad human being who
selfishly propagats things while not believing in an iota of them.

The day you do so, you are not just enemy of a nation, but of the humankind.


Rakesh



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anupam chakravartty
2010-04-13 10:50:31 UTC
Permalink
Bipin,

If that is the case then do not run topics on this forum saying: "ATTEMPT
OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE". there are genuine issues from this side of
India, as well as other parts of India which need to addressed both on
collective as well as individual level.
Everyone knows how Gujaratis have achieved success just like other Indians
from other states as well as individuals who refuse to be associated with
geographical confines of a region. at the same time, there are individuals
who have critically assessed the performance of all the states.

if i were to go by your subject line for this topic, then the recent CAG
report which shows how police, health and narmada dam fund utilization has
failed to achieve target, will you say that this is an attempt to tarnish
the image of Gujarat?


-anupam
Post by Bipin Trivedi
Misguiding or believing wrong things in your eye does not mean, that I
believe or argue is absolutely wrong. Let others decide whether my
arguments/belief are wrong or right.
Nothing I am writing here with anybody's guidance. I never met even single
politician in my life accept late Mr. Haren Pandya that is also as his
friend's neighbor. Yes I am not believe in much of these surveys or datas
(since bearing a few most of them) I know how it can be fractured and can be
derived own way. What I am writing with my instinct and general knowledge
and even I do not have much time to search the datas/sites. That's why
someone posting the good site link worth to read, I always thank/appreciate
him.
Since I am worrying for my nation, so I share my thought as neutral way to
put before public in forums like sarai. I never forced to believe in my
thoughts. With my posting, many might believe that I am BJP man or soft
corner with BJP. This is not true. But, what I fill that congress vote bank
politics harmed the country more than its good work whatever did since
today. What BJP did tit for tat to counter congress politics and when came
to power at the centre, they did not come with any single step which harmful
for any community.
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 3:21 PM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: anupam chakravartty; sarai-list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Dear Bipin
I have never said that you are the 'enemy' of a nation, be it any nation
including ours. My thoughts are based on the assumption that you are
misguided or believe in wrong things but are not a bad human being who
selfishly propagats things while not believing in an iota of them.
The day you do so, you are not just enemy of a nation, but of the humankind.
Rakesh
_________________________________________
reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
Critiques & Collaborations
subscribe in the subject header.
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Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi
2010-04-13 14:19:25 UTC
Permalink
Rakesh, it is the media which shows repeat telecast of visuals from gujarath
riots, not burning of S6 coach or the death of 56 innocents,it is the
anchors who have been bestowed with Padmashri awards, conducting talk shows
at every election times of the riots of Gujarath, but has any one shown any
of the media men or women showing the person they blame irresponsibly for
"not controlling" the riots any shreds of evidence for such bragging by
these prosecutors and judges rolled in to one.? Has any one seen the media
men and women discussing about the men and women who led much bigger
genocide in Delhi in 1984 right from the front led by HKL Bhagath,
Kamalnath, Sajan Kumar tak,Jagadeesh tytler, to prove their loyalty to the
ruler of their sin"cere good work for the party.? Did the premier
investigative agency, CBI has ever produced any evidence which stands the
court scrutiny against the powerful and rich or any of the politicians.? has
any men and women anchors of media ever taken up the good work of CBI if
done at all of lowest rate of convictions in any crime, that too some
scapegoat , like the servant of the rich and powerful.?CBI has the notorious
record of being the tool of the power which governs at the centre, so
please, remember, unlike Germany which did the mistake of not knowing the
diffrence between duly elected leader and the nominated CM has commented,
you can have the liberty at your own risk.!
Regards,
Rajen.
Post by Rakesh Iyer
It seems Modi has got further additions to his list of those who want to
brag about the 'image of Gujarat'. Anyways, the very same Modi didn't
realize that post-Godhra pogrom also tarnished the image of Gujarat.
Rakesh
Post by Bipin Trivedi
Thanks Dear Rajen for your consent and views.
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:32 PM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: sarai-list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Bipin,
you have hit where it really sticks out, media men and women seem to have
strange hate for Narendra Modi and very affectionate love for Sonia, in the
process, the more the hate is spread, the voters in Gujarath are giving
thumbs up to Modi, and for sure, they know best, as they have seen the
governance rendered by the Nehru, his minions later, India the india and her
Rajiv and now Sonia and her minions.!
regards,
Rajen.
Forwarding herewith reply received from Indira Hirway against my objection
for her article in the Hindu.
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:01 AM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Subject: Re: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Dear Mr. Bipin Trivedi,
I was away and therefore seen your mail only today. It is an interesting
mail!
I do not know you, but it will be nice to talk. Can we meet or talk? My
mobile is . I am located in Ahmedabad.
Best wishes,
Indira Hirway
Subject: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Date: Saturday, March 20, 2010, 4:51 PM
The Editor
Hindu Business Line
I refer to article by Dr. Indira Hirway in Hindu Business Line on Gujarat
economy sustains growth; human development index falls Feb. 25, 2010.
You are mentioning report of the period 1993 to 2005 in 2010 and
highlighting the issue. Do you have current figure or figure upto March 2009
of the same or even upto March 2008? How can you highlight 4 years old news?
Gujarat has much changed thereafter. Please be updated and publish
accordingly.
Gujarat is on very much development path even in the HDI parameters also.
Please search latest figure and publish accordingly and stop tarnishing
Gujarat image just because Narendra Modi will not get credit. I am not
belonging to any political party and not fan of Narendra Modi but I am fan
of development, whoever does it.
Actually you are indirectly helping Narendra Modi popularity in Gujarati
people by repeating attempts of tarnishing Gujarat image.
Thanks
Bipin Trivedi
_________________________________________
reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
Critiques & Collaborations
in the subject header.
To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
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--
Rajen.
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--
Rajen.
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Bipin Trivedi
2010-04-14 07:05:28 UTC
Permalink
Dear Rajen,



Well said media and so called secularists exaggerated the issues. While
others riots swiftly forgot by media, human right activist, so called
secularists. Yes, Rakesh rightly said that on those days of shikh and other
riots, media was not there accept doordarshan. But remember one thing after
2002 riots, initially whenever discussion in the media taken place no one
including media anchor mentioning burning coach and death of 56 innocent and
shikh and other riots, but only criticizing 2002 after math riots. When BJP
and others counter argument repeatedly pointed out about other riots also
they started mentioning and started criticizing event like burning coach and
other riots after about 3/4 years. Same way, here in reader list also, they
started mentioning these riots also after objection from people like us. You
can refer earlier discussion may be before more than 1 year, you will find
this. Of course, that's good and appreciable that by that way they have
changed their stand a little bit!



And rightly said that German delegation has no right to comment on such
matter. In this context it's difficult to understand the need for such a
powerful official German delegation to pass a judgment on the state and
reiterate that Modi continues to be persona non-grata in the European Union
and they want trials against him to be completed soon. They want that the
court matter to be end soon and give clean chit to Modi, there is immense
pressure from European union countries want to clear the way to give visa to
Modi. Since, many organization of countries of European union wants to
invite Modi. In the Indian history, any CM except Modi did not able to
attract such international attention. This is not because of 2002 riot
happened during his tenure, but this is because of his governance ability.



Thanks

Bipin





From: Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi [mailto:***@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 7:49 PM
To: Rakesh Iyer
Cc: Bipin Trivedi; sarai-list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE



Rakesh, it is the media which shows repeat telecast of visuals from gujarath
riots, not burning of S6 coach or the death of 56 innocents,it is the
anchors who have been bestowed with Padmashri awards, conducting talk shows
at every election times of the riots of Gujarath, but has any one shown any
of the media men or women showing the person they blame irresponsibly for
"not controlling" the riots any shreds of evidence for such bragging by
these prosecutors and judges rolled in to one.? Has any one seen the media
men and women discussing about the men and women who led much bigger
genocide in Delhi in 1984 right from the front led by HKL Bhagath,
Kamalnath, Sajan Kumar tak,Jagadeesh tytler, to prove their loyalty to the
ruler of their sin"cere good work for the party.? Did the premier
investigative agency, CBI has ever produced any evidence which stands the
court scrutiny against the powerful and rich or any of the politicians.? has
any men and women anchors of media ever taken up the good work of CBI if
done at all of lowest rate of convictions in any crime, that too some
scapegoat , like the servant of the rich and powerful.?CBI has the notorious
record of being the tool of the power which governs at the centre, so
please, remember, unlike Germany which did the mistake of not knowing the
diffrence between duly elected leader and the nominated CM has commented,
you can have the liberty at your own risk.!

Regards,

Rajen.

On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 10:35 AM, Rakesh Iyer <***@gmail.com>
wrote:

It seems Modi has got further additions to his list of those who want to
brag about the 'image of Gujarat'. Anyways, the very same Modi didn't
realize that post-Godhra pogrom also tarnished the image of Gujarat.

Rakesh



On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 10:32 AM, Bipin Trivedi <***@dataone.in> wrote:

Thanks Dear Rajen for your consent and views.





From: Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi [mailto:***@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 7:32 PM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: sarai-list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE




Bipin,

you have hit where it really sticks out, media men and women seem to have
strange hate for Narendra Modi and very affectionate love for Sonia, in the
process, the more the hate is spread, the voters in Gujarath are giving
thumbs up to Modi, and for sure, they know best, as they have seen the
governance rendered by the Nehru, his minions later, India the india and her
Rajiv and now Sonia and her minions.!

regards,

Rajen.

On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 10:43 AM, Bipin Trivedi <***@dataone.in> wrote:

Forwarding herewith reply received from Indira Hirway against my objection
for her article in the Hindu.





From: Indira Hirway [mailto:***@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:01 AM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Subject: Re: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE




Dear Mr. Bipin Trivedi,



I was away and therefore seen your mail only today. It is an interesting
mail!

I do not know you, but it will be nice to talk. Can we meet or talk? My
mobile is . I am located in Ahmedabad.



Best wishes,



Indira Hirway



--- On Sat, 3/20/10, Bipin Trivedi <***@dataone.in> wrote:


From: Bipin Trivedi <***@dataone.in>
Subject: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
To: ***@thehindu.co.in
Cc: ***@cfda.ac.in, ***@yahoo.com
Date: Saturday, March 20, 2010, 4:51 PM

The Editor

Hindu Business Line



I refer to article by Dr. Indira Hirway in Hindu Business Line on Gujarat
economy sustains growth; human development index falls Feb. 25, 2010.



You are mentioning report of the period 1993 to 2005 in 2010 and
highlighting the issue. Do you have current figure or figure upto March 2009
of the same or even upto March 2008? How can you highlight 4 years old news?
Gujarat has much changed thereafter. Please be updated and publish
accordingly.



Gujarat is on very much development path even in the HDI parameters also.
Please search latest figure and publish accordingly and stop tarnishing
Gujarat image just because Narendra Modi will not get credit. I am not
belonging to any political party and not fan of Narendra Modi but I am fan
of development, whoever does it.



Actually you are indirectly helping Narendra Modi popularity in Gujarati
people by repeating attempts of tarnishing Gujarat image.



Thanks

Bipin Trivedi





_________________________________________
reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
Critiques & Collaborations
To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-***@sarai.net with subscribe
in the subject header.
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--
Rajen.

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--
Rajen.

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Rakesh Iyer
2010-04-14 09:08:18 UTC
Permalink
Dear Bipin

You are talking about Godhra. First of all, Godhra is in Gujarat, and in
2002 when that incident took place, Gujarat had a BJP government in the
state whose primary responsibility it was to protect those who lost their
lives in the unfortunate incident.

Secondly, during that time, the Indian Govt. was the BJP-led NDA govt., and
the Railways Minister was Nitish Kumar, the current Chief Minister of Bihar.
It was his and his ministry's responsibility to ensure that those travelling
in any train, including this one, were protected.

Both failed, and the consequences were disastrous.

Let us go further ahead and use the arguments Gujarat police have used.

The Gujarat police initially declared that this was an ISI-led conspiracy to
use local elements and instigate them to carry out this heinous act. Any
such act should have been caught by the intelligence machinery and effective
measures taken to catch the culprits and counter this effort. The fact that
both central intelligence and state intelligence failed to do so, is a
failure of governments both at the centre and the state, both of which are
BJP or BJP-led. So again, the blame goes on the BJP and their governments.

What is also shameful is that a whole pogrom occupied the matters of a state
for so much time which took place because supposedly ISI had a role in
burning of the train. So basically, if the ISI in Pakistan conducts an act
of killing Hindus here, there will be riots. What a shame indeed for the
Indian society and for the Indian state that all that the ISI has to do is
conduct such an act and then wait for a pogrom to take place!

It was of course another matter that till date they have not been able to
prove how this was an ISI conspiracy to destabilize India.

The Gujarat police has also been conveniently changing stands on the Godhra
case. First, they said the train was burnt from outside. When it was stated
by forensic experts that this can't be done and also cited the proof of the
same (being that if the train was burnt from outside, the tracks would also
have been burnt somewhat), the new theory formulated was that the vestibule
was cut and people went in and poured petrol inside. Nobody thought it fit
to realize that in the stone-throwing spree from outside, with the doors
closed, firstly people inside the bogie would have protested and pushed out
those who were pouring kerosene or petrol on the people. Secondly, all
sleeper coaches in such trains are connected and so people could have
escaped through these to other coaches. And most importantly, some people
did manage to escape through the door, though they did get injured due to
stone-throwing. And yes, while cloth rags were thrown inside the bogies, no
passenger eye-witness claimed any petrol or kerosene being thrown on them or
others.

The Gujarat police arrested even a blind person as part of the conspiracy.
And all of these were charged under POTA. Never mind that there was not an
iota of evidence to prove that these people were terrorists or were part of
a conspiracy!

This is about Godhra. Till today, we don't know how this act of burning took
place. We don't know who are the perpetrators. Horror of horrors, we don't
know who all actually lost their lives on that day, since the identities of
some of those who died are still not known (never mind that the
RSS-VHP-BJP-Bajrang Dal combine states that they are karsewaks, without any
evidence to back their claim). And we don't know why unlike in normal cases,
the Railway Ministry didn't institute a commission of inquiry to investigate
the event within 48 hours (this work being done by the Nanavati-Shah
commission).

When the police fails, a whole set of people are not able to get justice.
And a whole set of innocents then find themselves being implicated in false
cases.

But then some people live in the irony of pride of Gujarat.

Rakesh

P.S:

It's hilarious for you to claim that we have started noting other riots or
pogroms. I don't think anyone with any sense of humanity can ever condone a
riot or a pogrom. Just because I didn't mention it or someone never
mentioned it doesn't mean they support it. First ask them before stating
such things.

For people like you who believe in tit-for-tat, two wrongs make a right.
Since Congress organized 1984 pogrom and got away with it, BJP according to
you also has a right to conduct 2002 pogrom and get away with it. Since
Congress according to you practises corruption, BJP also has a right to
indulge in corruption. And since Congress has a right to indulge in
appeasement of Muslims, BJP has a right to indulge in Hindu appeasement as
well.

It would be good for you to understand that both are wrong, and because you
have done a wrong act doesn't mean I too have a right to commit that wrong
act.

@ Pawan

I wonder what kind of person are you, who claims on one hand to have
suffered at the hands of fundamentalists in Kashmir and also the government,
(forced out of Kashmir, your home), and supporting a mass-murderer like Modi
who has a completely skewed notion of development and was fiddling like Nero
while Gujarat burnt.

I thought victims of tragedies of a similar kind understand each other. But
this notion of yours now makes me think twice about that assertion.
_________________________________________
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Critiques & Collaborations
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List arc
Pawan Durani
2010-04-14 09:26:33 UTC
Permalink
@ Rakesh Ji :Students should learn not to mix up two project reports.
Similarly the inference you have derived seem to be from two reports
which you have very conveniently mixed up.

It is very selfish, unethical and libel on your part to call Mahatma
Modhi as a mass murderer .

Regards

Pawan
Post by Rakesh Iyer
Dear Bipin
You are talking about Godhra. First of all, Godhra is in Gujarat, and in
2002 when that incident took place, Gujarat had a BJP government in the
state whose primary responsibility it was to protect those who lost their
lives in the unfortunate incident.
Secondly, during that time, the Indian Govt. was the BJP-led NDA govt., and
the Railways Minister was Nitish Kumar, the current Chief Minister of Bihar.
It was his and his ministry's responsibility to ensure that those travelling
in any train, including this one, were protected.
Both failed, and the consequences were disastrous.
Let us go further ahead and use the arguments Gujarat police have used.
The Gujarat police initially declared that this was an ISI-led conspiracy to
use local elements and instigate them to carry out this heinous act. Any
such act should have been caught by the intelligence machinery and effective
measures taken to catch the culprits and counter this effort. The fact that
both central intelligence and state intelligence failed to do so, is a
failure of governments both at the centre and the state, both of which are
BJP or BJP-led. So again, the blame goes on the BJP and their governments.
What is also shameful is that a whole pogrom occupied the matters of a state
for so much time which took place because supposedly ISI had a role in
burning of the train. So basically, if the ISI in Pakistan conducts an act
of killing Hindus here, there will be riots. What a shame indeed for the
Indian society and for the Indian state that all that the ISI has to do is
conduct such an act and then wait for a pogrom to take place!
It was of course another matter that till date they have not been able to
prove how this was an ISI conspiracy to destabilize India.
The Gujarat police has also been conveniently changing stands on the Godhra
case. First, they said the train was burnt from outside. When it was stated
by forensic experts that this can't be done and also cited the proof of the
same (being that if the train was burnt from outside, the tracks would also
have been burnt somewhat), the new theory formulated was that the vestibule
was cut and people went in and poured petrol inside. Nobody thought it fit
to realize that in the stone-throwing spree from outside, with the doors
closed, firstly people inside the bogie would have protested and pushed out
those who were pouring kerosene or petrol on the people. Secondly, all
sleeper coaches in such trains are connected and so people could have
escaped through these to other coaches. And most importantly, some people
did manage to escape through the door, though they did get injured due to
stone-throwing. And yes, while cloth rags were thrown inside the bogies, no
passenger eye-witness claimed any petrol or kerosene being thrown on them or
others.
The Gujarat police arrested even a blind person as part of the conspiracy.
And all of these were charged under POTA. Never mind that there was not an
iota of evidence to prove that these people were terrorists or were part of
a conspiracy!
This is about Godhra. Till today, we don't know how this act of burning took
place. We don't know who are the perpetrators. Horror of horrors, we don't
know who all actually lost their lives on that day, since the identities of
some of those who died are still not known (never mind that the
RSS-VHP-BJP-Bajrang Dal combine states that they are karsewaks, without any
evidence to back their claim). And we don't know why unlike in normal cases,
the Railway Ministry didn't institute a commission of inquiry to investigate
the event within 48 hours (this work being done by the Nanavati-Shah
commission).
When the police fails, a whole set of people are not able to get justice.
And a whole set of innocents then find themselves being implicated in false
cases.
But then some people live in the irony of pride of Gujarat.
Rakesh
It's hilarious for you to claim that we have started noting other riots or
pogroms. I don't think anyone with any sense of humanity can ever condone a
riot or a pogrom. Just because I didn't mention it or someone never
mentioned it doesn't mean they support it. First ask them before stating
such things.
For people like you who believe in tit-for-tat, two wrongs make a right.
Since Congress organized 1984 pogrom and got away with it, BJP according to
you also has a right to conduct 2002 pogrom and get away with it. Since
Congress according to you practises corruption, BJP also has a right to
indulge in corruption. And since Congress has a right to indulge in
appeasement of Muslims, BJP has a right to indulge in Hindu appeasement as
well.
It would be good for you to understand that both are wrong, and because you
have done a wrong act doesn't mean I too have a right to commit that wrong
act.
@ Pawan
I wonder what kind of person are you, who claims on one hand to have
suffered at the hands of fundamentalists in Kashmir and also the government,
(forced out of Kashmir, your home), and supporting a mass-murderer like Modi
who has a completely skewed notion of development and was fiddling like Nero
while Gujarat burnt.
I thought victims of tragedies of a similar kind understand each other. But
this notion of yours now makes me think twice about that assertion.
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Rakesh Iyer
2010-04-14 09:34:08 UTC
Permalink
Dear Pawan

With regard to your accusation, there are two parts:

1) If it's with reference to Gujarat that I have mixed up reports, then
please that's not true. There are multiple accounts of subversion of justice
in the Godhra case itself.

But if the reference is to comparison between the two situations in Kashmir
and Gujarat, yes there are differences, but there are also similarities. The
Muslims (and some Hindus) had to live in camps just like Kashmiri Pandits
after being forced out of Kashmir.

And since the kind of victimization is similar (with regard to what one
feels on being rooted out of one's own home and also seeing his/her dear
ones killed in front of him/her), I thought you would feel for such acts.

It's strange that this is termed mixing of two acts. The intention is not to
mix the act but make you feel based on your own experience that such acts
should not be supported.


2) Modi is indeed the Mahatma of communalization of politics. But I don't
understand what is unethical in criticizing Modi for not protecting the
lives of innocents.

Or may be you too believe that Muslims and Christians are the enemies of
India and should be wiped out, like Modi, the RSS, the BJP and of course,
the great Savarkar-Golwalkar duo.

Rakesh
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Pawan Durani
2010-04-14 09:42:18 UTC
Permalink
Source : http://www.vskgujarat.com/godhraandaftermath/godhracarnage.htm

Terrorism in Godhra victimising Hindus is not new. It dates back to
1927. Various incidents which are noted in the records of Govt. show
that Muslim terrorists have been responsible for acts of terrorism
some of which took place in the years 1927, 1946, 48, 65, 80, 90, 92,
2002. People in Gujarat know well about all these acts of violence.

In 1980 a similar attack on Hindus was organised in which 5 Hindus
including two Hindu Children aged 5 and 7 were burnt alive. A
Gurudwara was also set on fire. 40 Hindu shops were burnt down.
Similar ghastly incidents of killings are on record.

In a ghastly incident, which has shocked the collective, conscience of
the entire nation, at least 58 people (inclusive of 25 women and 14
children) were burnt alive and many others were injured when the
Ahmedabad- bound Sabarmati Express was stoned and set on fire by a mob
near Godhra on Wednesday i.e. 27th February, 2002 morning. The victims
were mostly VHP volunteers returning from Ayodhya with their families
after participating in a religious ceremony for the construction of
the Ram Mandir.

The dead included 25 women and 14 children, most of whom were in the
S- 6 coach which was completely charred as the mob put petrol cans to
deadly use. About 36 persons were rushed to Godhra Civil Hospital with
burn injuries. Survivors said that the train was first pelted with
stones and petrol bombs were hurled at around 7.30 am, couple of
hundred meters away from Godhra, as it left the railway station.

The train was stopped near Singal Falia, a notorious area of Godhra,
as someone apparently pulled the chain. A mob rushed towards the two
coaches S6 and S7 pelting stones initially. Once the windows were
broken they threw petrol bombs inside. Later, said survivors, S6 coach
was doused with petrol and diesel from outside and set on fire even as
the passengers looked on haplessly, screaming for help. About 30
persons were charred to death and many more collapsed while making
their way out of the coach, their lungs filled with smoke. Actually
the count was difficult because most of the bodies were in a heap,
totally burnt. Smoke was billowing out of the half burnt bodies till
about noon. Godhra was once again made the target for this inhuman
heinous burning of live individuals. Perhaps even after an exhaustive
search no parallel to this incident could be found anywhere in the
world.

There are several reasons to believe that this was a pre-planned
conspiracy as could be seen from the following facts :-

1. of a particular religion were asked to get down at the previous
station of Dahod.

2. patients of a particular community were discharged from the civil
hospital of Godhra one day before 27th Not a single case from a
particular community was registered on 27th Feb.

3. a single student or a teacher of a particular community was present
in the schools of Godhra on 27th Feb.

4. clearly shows that not only it was a pre-planned attack but many
others were aware that something is likely to happen on that day.

5. five people are likely to have foreign connections. It is suspected
that this attack was a part of ISI design.

6. L. K. Advani, Shri George Fernandes, Narendra Modi and the BJP
president, have indicated that ISI might have masterminded this
attack.

7. chief minister of Gujarat, Shri Chhabildas Mehta has warned that
such elements should not be allowed to succeed in the land of Gujarat.

8. Herald and Gujarat Samachar, in their editions dated 4th March, had
also indicated that ISI is behind this attack.

Reaction in the State :

There was very strong reaction of this tragedy in the entire state of
Gujarat. As the news began spreading through the TV channels, even
small villages in the entire state were shocked and violence began.
The most frightening reports came from the villages of
Pandorwada-Lambadiya in panchmahal district. The residential colonies
were gutted down, people were killed and burnt alive. At least 40
villages were placed under curfew. Even the city like Rajkot, which
always remained peaceful, was kept under curfew. This time, the
reaction in rural areas was simply unprecedented.

Reaction of Political Leaders :

Immediately after the news of Godhra massacre reached Gandhinagar,
Health Minister of Gujarat Govt. Ashok Bhatt and the
minister-in-charge for Panchmahal district, Shri Bhupendra Lakhawala
reached Godhra. Even Shri Narendra Modi reached there by the
Helicopter. After taking the note of the intensity of the tragedy and
its likely reaction he warned that strict measures would be taken
against those who would take the law in their own hands, gave
shoot-at-sight orders and also demanded extra forces and army from the
central government. The union defence minister, Shri George Fernandes
reached Gujarat on 1st March and toured entire riot affected area. On
the same afternoon army was deployed in the affected area. Home
Minister Shri L. K. Advani travelled extensively through the riot
affected parts of Godhra, Ahmedabad and Bhavnagar. He supported the
efforts of Gujarat. Government to re-establish law and order and
announced that nobody would be allowed to take law in his hands.
Gujarat Government announced the assistance of Rs. 200,000 each for
those died in Godhra and Rs. 100,000 each for those who died
elsewhere. As usual the reaction of Congress party was on predicted
line. Neither Sonia Gandhi, nor any state Congress Leader deplored
Godhra incident but they simply criticized the reaction of Gujarat to
this tragedy. Congress had also boycotted the all-party meeting
convened by the Chief Minister to discuss the current situation in
Gujarat and in turn tried to show that the Congress party was
interested in the welfare of only one community. Shri Amarsingh
Chowdhary accused that the riots in Gujarat are being carried out with
the backing of the state government (Jai Hind 5th March, 2002). But
after realizing the strong reaction of Hindu society towards Godhra
incident, he also had to accept that it was a well-planned conspiracy.
While the entire Hindu society was experiencing the pain of Godhra
tragedy, anti-Hindu secularists were busy in getting political mileage
from the entire events. According to the Deccan Herald (5th March,
2002), Shri Jyoti Basu has asked for the dismissal of state government
and former Prime Minister, Shri H. K. Devegauda demanded to announce
entire riot affected area as “Disturbed area”. Even Shri Surjeet
(CPM), Shri Mulayamsingh Yadav, Shri Amarsingh and Shri A. B. Bardhan
also demanded dismissal of Narendra Modi government.

History of Muslim Terrorism in Godhra from 1927 to 2002

Godhra is main centre of Panchmahal District, which is considered to
be communally very sensitive. Details of communal riots/atrocities by
Muslims are appended below.

1927-28 Murder of Shri P. M. Shah, a leading local representative of Hindus.

1946 Mr. Sadva Hazi & Mr. Chudighar, pro Pakistani Muslim leaders were
responsible for attack on a Parsi Solapuri fozdar during communal
riots. After partition, Mr. Chudighar left for Pakistan.

1948 Mr. Sadva Hazi conspired an attack on District collector Shri
Pimputkar in, 1948 but his bodyguard saved him at the cost of his own
life. After that Mr. Sadva Hazi also left for Pakistan in 1948.

On 24-3-48 one Hindu was stabbed to death near a mosque in Jahurpur
area. Around 2000 houses of Hindus were burnt besides Hindu Temples.
District collector Shri Pimputtkar could save the remaining areas
belonging to Hindus by imposing curfew, which lasted for six months.

1965 Shops belonging to Hindus were set ablaze near Police Chowki –
No. 7 by throwing incendiary material from near-by two Muslim Houses
viz. Bidani & Bhopa. It could be possible because of Congress MLA
belonging to minority. PSI of this Police Chowki which was near by
Railway Station was also attacked by Muslim unsocial elements.

1980 A similar attack was made on Hindus on 29-10-80, which started
from the Bus Station of Godhra. This attack was planned by Muslim
miscreants; who were involved in anti social activities near Station
Road area.

Five Hindus including two children of 5 and 7 year age were burnt
alive. A Gurudwara was also set on fire, in Shikari Chal of this area.
Forty shops belonging to Hindus were also set on fire in station area.
Due to these communal riots, Godhra was put under curfew for a year,
which severely affected the Business and Industries.

1990 Four Hindu Teachers were murdered by Muslim miscreants in Saifia
Madresa in Vhorvada area of Godhra on 20-11-’90. One Hindu Tailor was
also stabbed to death in this area. All this was done by Muslim
antisocial elements at the instance of the congress MLA of the area.

1992 More than 100 houses belonging to Hindus were set on fire near
Railway Station in the year 1992 to snatch this area from Hindus. All
this was done by Muslim terrorists. This area, now a days, is lying
vacant as most of the Hindu families have shifted elsewhere.

2002 Three bogies of Ahmedabad bound Sabarmati express were set on
fire on 27-02-02 by Muslim miscreants. Municipal members, railway
officers & employees belonging to minority community, tea stall
owners, auto rickshaw drivers and Muslim antisocial elements residing
nearby, had a plan to set on fire the entire train but could not do so
because the train was late for four hours and they could not take the
advantage of darkness of night. Following are the points for serious
consideration in this incident.

(1) This train was attacked near an open land belonging to Mr.
Sikandar Pathan wherefrom weapons were also seized.

(2) P.S.I. Shri Sharma was attacked with naked sword on the Railway
Station in 1980 by Aminabibi and her sons, who were operating gambling
clubs in Godhra. Mr. Jaspalsingh, the then Police Commissioner of
Vadodara was also attacked with knife on the Railway Platform by
antisocial elements operating Tea Stall on platform.

(3) These antisocial Muslim elements have also attacked and injured
ticket checkers about two months back. P.S.I. arrested them but the
Railway Police Officer who is a Muslim, got them released. However,
after a strong protest they were rearrested. This had resulted in fear
of their life in Railway employees.

(4) After this brutal attack on the train, no effective rescue efforts
were taken by Railway Police Officers for quite long time. Out of 30
Railway Security guards present on station, only 3 with sticks, had
gone to the place of attack. It is now to be considered why they had
helped this way in a preplanned attack.

(5) The man behind this Muslim terrorism is Pakistani Citizen Mr.
Mohammed Badanga who migrated from Pakistan in 1965. He was granted
Indian Citizenship at the behest of Mr. Pilu Modi the then M. P.. Mr.
Badanga had promoted the ISI sponsored Terrorism which resulted in
attack on the Sabarmati Express on 27-02-2002.

This clearly goes to establish that the Hindu Psyche had reached its
flash point because of the history of atrocities; hence the
spontaneous reaction as witnessed by Gujarat. This could certainly not
be attributed to organised-planned-efforts of any Hindu Organisation.

History of the Hindus in Gujarat reveal that only when the Hindu
sentiments are hurt, the out burst remains spontaneous, natural and
vigorous. Otherwise, as could be seen during natural calamities like
the earthquake, draught etc., both the communities have worked
hand-in-hand without any problem, leave aside enmity.

The government report on the extent of damage caused to the life and
property is very well elucidated below.

Details of Damage caused to the life & Property.

As on 7th March 2002, a brief account of the damage (other than the
initial Godhra incident) in the state is as follows.

* 607 deaths out of which 99 were due to police firing. They include
270 deaths in Ahmedabad.

* 820 injured out of which 321 were in Ahmedabad.

* 2459 houses, 1082 shops, 1084 larry gallas burnt.

* 691 shops ransacked/burnt.

* 12 buses & 936 other vehicles were damaged/burnt.

Damage caused in the heart of Ahmedabad

The Chandra Vilas Hotel, (A hotel 102 years old) C. Somabhai Tea,
Maharanidas Vallabhdas (a shop 75 years old), Kishore Trading Co.,
Desai Pen, Master Watch Co., Jayant Pen House, Khadi Gramodyog Mandir
and many more shops of repute were burnt. Many shops dealing in
timber, such as Tiku Traders, Poonam Traders, Godown of Apline Co.,
Durga Timber Mart – situated on Jagannathji Road were burnt to ashes.

The godown and office of Sundek Laminates, near Vishala Hotel and many
shops of Hindus got destroyed in the flames of communalism.

Government action to check the agitation in the state

* In the present case, the curfew was clamped within four hours in
Godhra on the same day. Compared to this, there was delay in ordering
curfew in the earlier incidents. The grievance for such delay was
reported before the Enquiry Commission.

* The complaint about inaction from the Police authorities and the
local administration were made before the Inquiry Commission. In the
present case in Gujarat, the Law and Order Enforcing Authority has
taken a proactive stand to curb the violence effectively. Police
Authorities have fired more than 3900 rounds; they have used more than
6500 rounds of tear gas and arrested more than 2800 people. One should
also take a note of the fact that 90 people have been killed in police
firing which shows that police showed no lenient approach towards
elements spreading violence, arson and looting. It is also very
pertinent to note that the geographical areas under grip of such unto
word incident were much larger in 2002, compared to the earlier
incidents of 1969 and 1985
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anupam chakravartty
2010-04-14 10:11:05 UTC
Permalink
how do you justify the death of 22 members of nasib bano's family from
delol, whose missing complaint got converted in 302 after eight years? how
do you justify bilkis bano's rape? how do you justify a dargah which was
demolished before municipal elections in vadodara in 2007 to create a
communal atmosphere? how do you justify the police firing on october 2008 in
fatehpura locality of Vadodara in which one person was killed and eight
others were injured with all the bullets aimed above the belt? how do you
justify satish mishra's wife pictures hanging in the VHP offices of Gujarat
branded as a kar sevak?

i bet you dont have answers to all of this. you think you have taken the
burden to save hindu religion, others are traitors of hindu religion
especially those who speak against injustice by gujarat government,
according to you and your website.

you are trying to cite historical examples of rioting but you still do not
have any idea as to how after the burning of the train, police remained
inactive and let the rioting spread which your RSS sponsored website
documents really well.
Post by Pawan Durani
Source : http://www.vskgujarat.com/godhraandaftermath/godhracarnage.htm
Terrorism in Godhra victimising Hindus is not new. It dates back to
1927. Various incidents which are noted in the records of Govt. show
that Muslim terrorists have been responsible for acts of terrorism
some of which took place in the years 1927, 1946, 48, 65, 80, 90, 92,
2002. People in Gujarat know well about all these acts of violence.
In 1980 a similar attack on Hindus was organised in which 5 Hindus
including two Hindu Children aged 5 and 7 were burnt alive. A
Gurudwara was also set on fire. 40 Hindu shops were burnt down.
Similar ghastly incidents of killings are on record.
In a ghastly incident, which has shocked the collective, conscience of
the entire nation, at least 58 people (inclusive of 25 women and 14
children) were burnt alive and many others were injured when the
Ahmedabad- bound Sabarmati Express was stoned and set on fire by a mob
near Godhra on Wednesday i.e. 27th February, 2002 morning. The victims
were mostly VHP volunteers returning from Ayodhya with their families
after participating in a religious ceremony for the construction of
the Ram Mandir.
The dead included 25 women and 14 children, most of whom were in the
S- 6 coach which was completely charred as the mob put petrol cans to
deadly use. About 36 persons were rushed to Godhra Civil Hospital with
burn injuries. Survivors said that the train was first pelted with
stones and petrol bombs were hurled at around 7.30 am, couple of
hundred meters away from Godhra, as it left the railway station.
The train was stopped near Singal Falia, a notorious area of Godhra,
as someone apparently pulled the chain. A mob rushed towards the two
coaches S6 and S7 pelting stones initially. Once the windows were
broken they threw petrol bombs inside. Later, said survivors, S6 coach
was doused with petrol and diesel from outside and set on fire even as
the passengers looked on haplessly, screaming for help. About 30
persons were charred to death and many more collapsed while making
their way out of the coach, their lungs filled with smoke. Actually
the count was difficult because most of the bodies were in a heap,
totally burnt. Smoke was billowing out of the half burnt bodies till
about noon. Godhra was once again made the target for this inhuman
heinous burning of live individuals. Perhaps even after an exhaustive
search no parallel to this incident could be found anywhere in the
world.
There are several reasons to believe that this was a pre-planned
conspiracy as could be seen from the following facts :-
1. of a particular religion were asked to get down at the previous
station of Dahod.
2. patients of a particular community were discharged from the civil
hospital of Godhra one day before 27th Not a single case from a
particular community was registered on 27th Feb.
3. a single student or a teacher of a particular community was present
in the schools of Godhra on 27th Feb.
4. clearly shows that not only it was a pre-planned attack but many
others were aware that something is likely to happen on that day.
5. five people are likely to have foreign connections. It is suspected
that this attack was a part of ISI design.
6. L. K. Advani, Shri George Fernandes, Narendra Modi and the BJP
president, have indicated that ISI might have masterminded this
attack.
7. chief minister of Gujarat, Shri Chhabildas Mehta has warned that
such elements should not be allowed to succeed in the land of Gujarat.
8. Herald and Gujarat Samachar, in their editions dated 4th March, had
also indicated that ISI is behind this attack.
There was very strong reaction of this tragedy in the entire state of
Gujarat. As the news began spreading through the TV channels, even
small villages in the entire state were shocked and violence began.
The most frightening reports came from the villages of
Pandorwada-Lambadiya in panchmahal district. The residential colonies
were gutted down, people were killed and burnt alive. At least 40
villages were placed under curfew. Even the city like Rajkot, which
always remained peaceful, was kept under curfew. This time, the
reaction in rural areas was simply unprecedented.
Immediately after the news of Godhra massacre reached Gandhinagar,
Health Minister of Gujarat Govt. Ashok Bhatt and the
minister-in-charge for Panchmahal district, Shri Bhupendra Lakhawala
reached Godhra. Even Shri Narendra Modi reached there by the
Helicopter. After taking the note of the intensity of the tragedy and
its likely reaction he warned that strict measures would be taken
against those who would take the law in their own hands, gave
shoot-at-sight orders and also demanded extra forces and army from the
central government. The union defence minister, Shri George Fernandes
reached Gujarat on 1st March and toured entire riot affected area. On
the same afternoon army was deployed in the affected area. Home
Minister Shri L. K. Advani travelled extensively through the riot
affected parts of Godhra, Ahmedabad and Bhavnagar. He supported the
efforts of Gujarat. Government to re-establish law and order and
announced that nobody would be allowed to take law in his hands.
Gujarat Government announced the assistance of Rs. 200,000 each for
those died in Godhra and Rs. 100,000 each for those who died
elsewhere. As usual the reaction of Congress party was on predicted
line. Neither Sonia Gandhi, nor any state Congress Leader deplored
Godhra incident but they simply criticized the reaction of Gujarat to
this tragedy. Congress had also boycotted the all-party meeting
convened by the Chief Minister to discuss the current situation in
Gujarat and in turn tried to show that the Congress party was
interested in the welfare of only one community. Shri Amarsingh
Chowdhary accused that the riots in Gujarat are being carried out with
the backing of the state government (Jai Hind 5th March, 2002). But
after realizing the strong reaction of Hindu society towards Godhra
incident, he also had to accept that it was a well-planned conspiracy.
While the entire Hindu society was experiencing the pain of Godhra
tragedy, anti-Hindu secularists were busy in getting political mileage
from the entire events. According to the Deccan Herald (5th March,
2002), Shri Jyoti Basu has asked for the dismissal of state government
and former Prime Minister, Shri H. K. Devegauda demanded to announce
entire riot affected area as “Disturbed area”. Even Shri Surjeet
(CPM), Shri Mulayamsingh Yadav, Shri Amarsingh and Shri A. B. Bardhan
also demanded dismissal of Narendra Modi government.
History of Muslim Terrorism in Godhra from 1927 to 2002
Godhra is main centre of Panchmahal District, which is considered to
be communally very sensitive. Details of communal riots/atrocities by
Muslims are appended below.
1927-28 Murder of Shri P. M. Shah, a leading local representative of Hindus.
1946 Mr. Sadva Hazi & Mr. Chudighar, pro Pakistani Muslim leaders were
responsible for attack on a Parsi Solapuri fozdar during communal
riots. After partition, Mr. Chudighar left for Pakistan.
1948 Mr. Sadva Hazi conspired an attack on District collector Shri
Pimputkar in, 1948 but his bodyguard saved him at the cost of his own
life. After that Mr. Sadva Hazi also left for Pakistan in 1948.
On 24-3-48 one Hindu was stabbed to death near a mosque in Jahurpur
area. Around 2000 houses of Hindus were burnt besides Hindu Temples.
District collector Shri Pimputtkar could save the remaining areas
belonging to Hindus by imposing curfew, which lasted for six months.
1965 Shops belonging to Hindus were set ablaze near Police Chowki –
No. 7 by throwing incendiary material from near-by two Muslim Houses
viz. Bidani & Bhopa. It could be possible because of Congress MLA
belonging to minority. PSI of this Police Chowki which was near by
Railway Station was also attacked by Muslim unsocial elements.
1980 A similar attack was made on Hindus on 29-10-80, which started
from the Bus Station of Godhra. This attack was planned by Muslim
miscreants; who were involved in anti social activities near Station
Road area.
Five Hindus including two children of 5 and 7 year age were burnt
alive. A Gurudwara was also set on fire, in Shikari Chal of this area.
Forty shops belonging to Hindus were also set on fire in station area.
Due to these communal riots, Godhra was put under curfew for a year,
which severely affected the Business and Industries.
1990 Four Hindu Teachers were murdered by Muslim miscreants in Saifia
Madresa in Vhorvada area of Godhra on 20-11-’90. One Hindu Tailor was
also stabbed to death in this area. All this was done by Muslim
antisocial elements at the instance of the congress MLA of the area.
1992 More than 100 houses belonging to Hindus were set on fire near
Railway Station in the year 1992 to snatch this area from Hindus. All
this was done by Muslim terrorists. This area, now a days, is lying
vacant as most of the Hindu families have shifted elsewhere.
2002 Three bogies of Ahmedabad bound Sabarmati express were set on
fire on 27-02-02 by Muslim miscreants. Municipal members, railway
officers & employees belonging to minority community, tea stall
owners, auto rickshaw drivers and Muslim antisocial elements residing
nearby, had a plan to set on fire the entire train but could not do so
because the train was late for four hours and they could not take the
advantage of darkness of night. Following are the points for serious
consideration in this incident.
(1) This train was attacked near an open land belonging to Mr.
Sikandar Pathan wherefrom weapons were also seized.
(2) P.S.I. Shri Sharma was attacked with naked sword on the Railway
Station in 1980 by Aminabibi and her sons, who were operating gambling
clubs in Godhra. Mr. Jaspalsingh, the then Police Commissioner of
Vadodara was also attacked with knife on the Railway Platform by
antisocial elements operating Tea Stall on platform.
(3) These antisocial Muslim elements have also attacked and injured
ticket checkers about two months back. P.S.I. arrested them but the
Railway Police Officer who is a Muslim, got them released. However,
after a strong protest they were rearrested. This had resulted in fear
of their life in Railway employees.
(4) After this brutal attack on the train, no effective rescue efforts
were taken by Railway Police Officers for quite long time. Out of 30
Railway Security guards present on station, only 3 with sticks, had
gone to the place of attack. It is now to be considered why they had
helped this way in a preplanned attack.
(5) The man behind this Muslim terrorism is Pakistani Citizen Mr.
Mohammed Badanga who migrated from Pakistan in 1965. He was granted
Indian Citizenship at the behest of Mr. Pilu Modi the then M. P.. Mr.
Badanga had promoted the ISI sponsored Terrorism which resulted in
attack on the Sabarmati Express on 27-02-2002.
This clearly goes to establish that the Hindu Psyche had reached its
flash point because of the history of atrocities; hence the
spontaneous reaction as witnessed by Gujarat. This could certainly not
be attributed to organised-planned-efforts of any Hindu Organisation.
History of the Hindus in Gujarat reveal that only when the Hindu
sentiments are hurt, the out burst remains spontaneous, natural and
vigorous. Otherwise, as could be seen during natural calamities like
the earthquake, draught etc., both the communities have worked
hand-in-hand without any problem, leave aside enmity.
The government report on the extent of damage caused to the life and
property is very well elucidated below.
Details of Damage caused to the life & Property.
As on 7th March 2002, a brief account of the damage (other than the
initial Godhra incident) in the state is as follows.
* 607 deaths out of which 99 were due to police firing. They include
270 deaths in Ahmedabad.
* 820 injured out of which 321 were in Ahmedabad.
* 2459 houses, 1082 shops, 1084 larry gallas burnt.
* 691 shops ransacked/burnt.
* 12 buses & 936 other vehicles were damaged/burnt.
Damage caused in the heart of Ahmedabad
The Chandra Vilas Hotel, (A hotel 102 years old) C. Somabhai Tea,
Maharanidas Vallabhdas (a shop 75 years old), Kishore Trading Co.,
Desai Pen, Master Watch Co., Jayant Pen House, Khadi Gramodyog Mandir
and many more shops of repute were burnt. Many shops dealing in
timber, such as Tiku Traders, Poonam Traders, Godown of Apline Co.,
Durga Timber Mart – situated on Jagannathji Road were burnt to ashes.
The godown and office of Sundek Laminates, near Vishala Hotel and many
shops of Hindus got destroyed in the flames of communalism.
Government action to check the agitation in the state
* In the present case, the curfew was clamped within four hours in
Godhra on the same day. Compared to this, there was delay in ordering
curfew in the earlier incidents. The grievance for such delay was
reported before the Enquiry Commission.
* The complaint about inaction from the Police authorities and the
local administration were made before the Inquiry Commission. In the
present case in Gujarat, the Law and Order Enforcing Authority has
taken a proactive stand to curb the violence effectively. Police
Authorities have fired more than 3900 rounds; they have used more than
6500 rounds of tear gas and arrested more than 2800 people. One should
also take a note of the fact that 90 people have been killed in police
firing which shows that police showed no lenient approach towards
elements spreading violence, arson and looting. It is also very
pertinent to note that the geographical areas under grip of such unto
word incident were much larger in 2002, compared to the earlier
incidents of 1969 and 1985
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Rakesh Iyer
2010-04-14 10:22:13 UTC
Permalink
Dear Pawan

I have read these mails and let me state my views here:

1) Actions here have been used to prove that Muslim terrorism has been
perpetrated in Gujarat. This is ridiculous. Just because perpetrators
unleashed violence on hapless minorities in Gujarat after 2002, I won't call
it as Hindu terrorism. For me, it's state-sponsored terrorism. To associated
the word 'Hindu' with terrorism for such acts is unpardonable and should be
condemned by all sane people.

2) If unlawful acts have been committed at any point of time, be it during
or not during riots, they must be condemned. The writer has mentioned many
things. Can he also mention what action was taken in all of these cases, and
if not, what has the BJP govt. done in these cases in order to ensure
whether justice was served or not. After all, the BJP is a govt of the
'Hindus', as these elements claim, right?

May I know what this supposedly Hindu party did in these cases to secure
justice for their brethren?

And I feel ashamed if what has been reported as incidents of terror are
true, for I don't feel any act of violence can be justified, even if these
were during or not during riots.

3) Some facts have been put up regarding Godhra in this blog:

*1. of a particular religion were asked to get down at the previous
station of Dahod.

*Can some one please state here who are these people of a particular
religion who got down at Dahod? And who saw them getting down? How did this
blog writer come to know about this information?
*
2. patients of a particular community were discharged from the civil
hospital of Godhra one day before 27th Not a single case from a
particular community was registered on 27th Feb.

*Where did this information come from? What is the source of this
information?
*
3. a single student or a teacher of a particular community was present
in the schools of Godhra on 27th Feb.

*What is the source of this information?*

4. clearly shows that not only it was a pre-planned attack but many
others were aware that something is likely to happen on that day.

*How come the blog writer has stated that it was a pre-planned attack and
others were aware about it? Does he state this based on the above three
points? And if yes, how come he came to know about the three points? Is this
a part of his/her personal investigation, or just arbitrary accusations?
*
5. five people are likely to have foreign connections. It is suspected
that this attack was a part of ISI design.
*
Which five people are being talked about? And where did he get the news
about ISI being suspected behind the incident?*

6. L. K. Advani, Shri George Fernandes, Narendra Modi and the BJP
president, have indicated that ISI might have masterminded this
attack.

*Advani and the rest told this even before any preliminary investigation had
been carried out into the incident. And till today, not an iota of evidence
has been presented by the police either before the judiciary or any
commission of inquiry or even before the media to prove that this is an
ISI-led attack. Without proof, I can also say that 26/11 was conducted by
RAW. Would that be true? *

8. Herald and Gujarat Samachar, in their editions dated 4th March, had
also indicated that ISI is behind this attack.*

Newspapers highlight many things and don't put other things as well.
Gujarati-language newspapers were accused by many of giving news with a
biased anti-Muslim tinge to them. My own grandfather who lives in Jamnagar
(for more than 40 years now) stated that the news items regarding the
post-Godhra violence always had some anti-Muslim tinge to them, along with
editorial articles. And this was true even for Gujarat Samachar, which was
till then largely considered a 'secular' paper.

4) Since you wish to talk about post-Godhra violence, let me state them as
well:

i) The tomb of Wali Gujarati in Ahmedabad was burnt. It was on a public
road. What harm had the tomb done to be burnt? And this was not an isolated
incident.

More on what the rioters did on monuments which had to be protected as they
are archives of our culture and history in this article on Rediff.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2006/mar/06gujarat.htm

ii) During the entire pogrom, there was organized looting and killing on a
mass scale. Shops were being looted by people who were travelling around in
cars to house their 'stolen material'. Car-showrooms were smashed and burnt.
Masjids and dargahs were burnt.

Politicians were leading mobs and directing them as well as talking on
mobiles to know about death counts. Moreover, trucks were called in to
transport dead bodies and scatter them around to lower death count in many
places. Bodies which were disposed of during those days were in a despicable
condition and it was difficult to bury them, as one video I saw on the
Gujarat riots filmed by a Hindu showed.

Petrol and even LPG cylinders were used on a massive scale to burn people
alive to death. There is evidence after evidence after evidence of all this.
Also we know that the police didn't register cases in many incidents or
clubbed cases to ensure lesser penalty for those caught. The main actors
were also not named in the FIR's and efforts were made to ensure that cases
were dropped in return for allowing people to come back to villages they
lived in.

Modi himself didn't attend any of the relief camps Muslims and even some of
the Hindus had to run to after the violence took place, until Vajpayee came
there.

iii) Ehsan Jaffery was hacked to death. Till today his body has not been
found. Many lost their lives in the massacre related to this. During this
incident, police had just left his home 5 minutes before, when the mob came.
And the killing was a spree for all to loot and rape women and hack the men
and later the women and children to death. Did they go and burn the S-6
coach at Godhra?


It is also shameful Pawan ji, that you are championing the cause of a person
who presided over the violence which even forced the Supreme Court to
compare him to a Nero who fiddled while Gujarat (Nero's Rome) burnt.

How proud are people on this forum to celebrate a man who presided over the
rape and killing of so many! I wonder if they would be proud if their own
wives and mothers were raped by a mob led by a politician who is revered by
others in this forum or elsewhere in the society.

Rakesh
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Pawan Durani
2010-04-14 10:37:25 UTC
Permalink
Source : http://deshgujarat.com/2010/03/30/now-see-the-truthmodis-stand-during-godhra-was-thisvideo/

Amidst all mud throwing by Congress and leftists, foreign funded NGOs
and media, this video given above shows reality of Narendra Modi’s
stand during Godhra riots of year 2002. This video reveals how
baseless and completely false are the allegations made by section of
media, NGOs and politicians of the country against Narendra Modi for
last eight years in connection with Godhra riots.

This video was telecast on Doordarshan channel a day after the Muslims
burnt 54 Hindu pilgrims returning back from Ayodhya.

In this video Mr. Modi requests the people of Gujarat to maintain law
and order and peace in the state. The video has subtitles in English.

It is good that Modi presented himself before SIT, because now he will
come out clean, as he was and he is.

The untruth bombarded for crores of times again and again never
becomes truth. They shouted untruth for thousands of time that Modi
was called by SIT on 21 March, but it didn’t become truth. They
shouted thousands of times that Modi was not honoring law because he
didn’t appear on 21 March before SIT, but it didn’t become truth, the
date was not 21st, they had to admit. They shouted that Modi called
SIT investigator at his bungalow for interrogation citing security
issue, but it didn’t become truth, Modi himself went to SIT office,
the world watched it. They shouted and cried over Chief Justice
sharing dias with Modi, but the Chief Justice shared. They shouted
over Zimbabve’s former Justice Ibrahim sharing dais with Modi, but
Justice Ibrahim not only shared the dais but also praised Modi in his
speech in very same program. They shouted over Amitabh Bachchan’s
consent to become Brand Ambassador of Gujarat Tourism and criticized
it in worst possible manner, but Amitabh did not succumb to their cry,
And they are shouting day and night for last eight years that Modi is
involved in Godhra riots, but this untruth will not become truth,
because it is a sheer lie and glorified untruth.

Modi’s stand during Godhra riot is up and clear in the video above. If
he wanted more riots, he could avoid telecasting this appeal. After
all, this was not mandatory for him at that time. He was going against
his own people’s anger to relay this appeal.

The transcripts of this video is available in Gujarati and Hindi in PDF format
_________________________________________
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anupam chakravartty
2010-04-14 10:42:42 UTC
Permalink
but then he also started a gujarat asmita yatra where he spoke about the
riots as a conspiracy to defame gujarat inciting many. i suggest you have a
look at final solution, a documentary that travels along with this rath
yatra to all the cities. doordarshan telecasting such a message by modi is
unheard of and deshgujarat is BJP owned portal. come again Pawan with
something more conclusive.
Post by Pawan Durani
http://deshgujarat.com/2010/03/30/now-see-the-truthmodis-stand-during-godhra-was-thisvideo/
Amidst all mud throwing by Congress and leftists, foreign funded NGOs
and media, this video given above shows reality of Narendra Modi’s
stand during Godhra riots of year 2002. This video reveals how
baseless and completely false are the allegations made by section of
media, NGOs and politicians of the country against Narendra Modi for
last eight years in connection with Godhra riots.
This video was telecast on Doordarshan channel a day after the Muslims
burnt 54 Hindu pilgrims returning back from Ayodhya.
In this video Mr. Modi requests the people of Gujarat to maintain law
and order and peace in the state. The video has subtitles in English.
It is good that Modi presented himself before SIT, because now he will
come out clean, as he was and he is.
The untruth bombarded for crores of times again and again never
becomes truth. They shouted untruth for thousands of time that Modi
was called by SIT on 21 March, but it didn’t become truth. They
shouted thousands of times that Modi was not honoring law because he
didn’t appear on 21 March before SIT, but it didn’t become truth, the
date was not 21st, they had to admit. They shouted that Modi called
SIT investigator at his bungalow for interrogation citing security
issue, but it didn’t become truth, Modi himself went to SIT office,
the world watched it. They shouted and cried over Chief Justice
sharing dias with Modi, but the Chief Justice shared. They shouted
over Zimbabve’s former Justice Ibrahim sharing dais with Modi, but
Justice Ibrahim not only shared the dais but also praised Modi in his
speech in very same program. They shouted over Amitabh Bachchan’s
consent to become Brand Ambassador of Gujarat Tourism and criticized
it in worst possible manner, but Amitabh did not succumb to their cry,
And they are shouting day and night for last eight years that Modi is
involved in Godhra riots, but this untruth will not become truth,
because it is a sheer lie and glorified untruth.
Modi’s stand during Godhra riot is up and clear in the video above. If
he wanted more riots, he could avoid telecasting this appeal. After
all, this was not mandatory for him at that time. He was going against
his own people’s anger to relay this appeal.
The transcripts of this video is available in Gujarati and Hindi in PDF format
_________________________________________
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Critiques & Collaborations
subscribe in the subject header.
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Bipin Trivedi
2010-04-14 10:53:58 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Dear Pawan for posting this link


-----Original Message-----
From: Pawan Durani [mailto:***@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 4:07 PM
To: Rakesh Iyer
Cc: Bipin Trivedi; sarai-list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE

Source :
http://deshgujarat.com/2010/03/30/now-see-the-truthmodis-stand-during-godhra
-was-thisvideo/

Amidst all mud throwing by Congress and leftists, foreign funded NGOs
and media, this video given above shows reality of Narendra Modi's
stand during Godhra riots of year 2002. This video reveals how
baseless and completely false are the allegations made by section of
media, NGOs and politicians of the country against Narendra Modi for
last eight years in connection with Godhra riots.

This video was telecast on Doordarshan channel a day after the Muslims
burnt 54 Hindu pilgrims returning back from Ayodhya.

In this video Mr. Modi requests the people of Gujarat to maintain law
and order and peace in the state. The video has subtitles in English.

It is good that Modi presented himself before SIT, because now he will
come out clean, as he was and he is.

The untruth bombarded for crores of times again and again never
becomes truth. They shouted untruth for thousands of time that Modi
was called by SIT on 21 March, but it didn't become truth. They
shouted thousands of times that Modi was not honoring law because he
didn't appear on 21 March before SIT, but it didn't become truth, the
date was not 21st, they had to admit. They shouted that Modi called
SIT investigator at his bungalow for interrogation citing security
issue, but it didn't become truth, Modi himself went to SIT office,
the world watched it. They shouted and cried over Chief Justice
sharing dias with Modi, but the Chief Justice shared. They shouted
over Zimbabve's former Justice Ibrahim sharing dais with Modi, but
Justice Ibrahim not only shared the dais but also praised Modi in his
speech in very same program. They shouted over Amitabh Bachchan's
consent to become Brand Ambassador of Gujarat Tourism and criticized
it in worst possible manner, but Amitabh did not succumb to their cry,
And they are shouting day and night for last eight years that Modi is
involved in Godhra riots, but this untruth will not become truth,
because it is a sheer lie and glorified untruth.

Modi's stand during Godhra riot is up and clear in the video above. If
he wanted more riots, he could avoid telecasting this appeal. After
all, this was not mandatory for him at that time. He was going against
his own people's anger to relay this appeal.

The transcripts of this video is available in Gujarati and Hindi in PDF
format

_________________________________________
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Critiques & Collaborations
To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-***@sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.
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Bipin Trivedi
2010-04-14 10:37:04 UTC
Permalink
Dear Rakesh,

Why you repeating all these, which you have mentioned many times and yet the
investigation going on by both commission and SC. The point here is only
this issue every one want to highlight while other riots swiftly forgotten
that was actually point I have mentioned in my mail in which you replied all
this.

You are proving me right again that only this issue every one want to
highlight and exaggerate.





From: Rakesh Iyer [mailto:***@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 2:38 PM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: sarai-list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE



Dear Bipin

You are talking about Godhra. First of all, Godhra is in Gujarat, and in
2002 when that incident took place, Gujarat had a BJP government in the
state whose primary responsibility it was to protect those who lost their
lives in the unfortunate incident.

Secondly, during that time, the Indian Govt. was the BJP-led NDA govt., and
the Railways Minister was Nitish Kumar, the current Chief Minister of Bihar.
It was his and his ministry's responsibility to ensure that those travelling
in any train, including this one, were protected.

Both failed, and the consequences were disastrous.

Let us go further ahead and use the arguments Gujarat police have used.

The Gujarat police initially declared that this was an ISI-led conspiracy to
use local elements and instigate them to carry out this heinous act. Any
such act should have been caught by the intelligence machinery and effective
measures taken to catch the culprits and counter this effort. The fact that
both central intelligence and state intelligence failed to do so, is a
failure of governments both at the centre and the state, both of which are
BJP or BJP-led. So again, the blame goes on the BJP and their governments.

What is also shameful is that a whole pogrom occupied the matters of a state
for so much time which took place because supposedly ISI had a role in
burning of the train. So basically, if the ISI in Pakistan conducts an act
of killing Hindus here, there will be riots. What a shame indeed for the
Indian society and for the Indian state that all that the ISI has to do is
conduct such an act and then wait for a pogrom to take place!

It was of course another matter that till date they have not been able to
prove how this was an ISI conspiracy to destabilize India.

The Gujarat police has also been conveniently changing stands on the Godhra
case. First, they said the train was burnt from outside. When it was stated
by forensic experts that this can't be done and also cited the proof of the
same (being that if the train was burnt from outside, the tracks would also
have been burnt somewhat), the new theory formulated was that the vestibule
was cut and people went in and poured petrol inside. Nobody thought it fit
to realize that in the stone-throwing spree from outside, with the doors
closed, firstly people inside the bogie would have protested and pushed out
those who were pouring kerosene or petrol on the people. Secondly, all
sleeper coaches in such trains are connected and so people could have
escaped through these to other coaches. And most importantly, some people
did manage to escape through the door, though they did get injured due to
stone-throwing. And yes, while cloth rags were thrown inside the bogies, no
passenger eye-witness claimed any petrol or kerosene being thrown on them or
others.

The Gujarat police arrested even a blind person as part of the conspiracy.
And all of these were charged under POTA. Never mind that there was not an
iota of evidence to prove that these people were terrorists or were part of
a conspiracy!

This is about Godhra. Till today, we don't know how this act of burning took
place. We don't know who are the perpetrators. Horror of horrors, we don't
know who all actually lost their lives on that day, since the identities of
some of those who died are still not known (never mind that the
RSS-VHP-BJP-Bajrang Dal combine states that they are karsewaks, without any
evidence to back their claim). And we don't know why unlike in normal cases,
the Railway Ministry didn't institute a commission of inquiry to investigate
the event within 48 hours (this work being done by the Nanavati-Shah
commission).

When the police fails, a whole set of people are not able to get justice.
And a whole set of innocents then find themselves being implicated in false
cases.

But then some people live in the irony of pride of Gujarat.

Rakesh

P.S:

It's hilarious for you to claim that we have started noting other riots or
pogroms. I don't think anyone with any sense of humanity can ever condone a
riot or a pogrom. Just because I didn't mention it or someone never
mentioned it doesn't mean they support it. First ask them before stating
such things.

For people like you who believe in tit-for-tat, two wrongs make a right.
Since Congress organized 1984 pogrom and got away with it, BJP according to
you also has a right to conduct 2002 pogrom and get away with it. Since
Congress according to you practises corruption, BJP also has a right to
indulge in corruption. And since Congress has a right to indulge in
appeasement of Muslims, BJP has a right to indulge in Hindu appeasement as
well.

It would be good for you to understand that both are wrong, and because you
have done a wrong act doesn't mean I too have a right to commit that wrong
act.

@ Pawan

I wonder what kind of person are you, who claims on one hand to have
suffered at the hands of fundamentalists in Kashmir and also the government,
(forced out of Kashmir, your home), and supporting a mass-murderer like Modi
who has a completely skewed notion of development and was fiddling like Nero
while Gujarat burnt.

I thought victims of tragedies of a similar kind understand each other. But
this notion of yours now makes me think twice about that assertion.








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Rakesh Iyer
2010-04-14 10:55:19 UTC
Permalink
Dear Bipin

I post these mails in the hope that you would try to be rational and
understand that your faith in Modi is misguided.

As for exaggerating things, I had written mails on Right to Food and NREGA
as well. Then nobody was around here to argue for such things or suggest
better concrete measures. Even you have only such issues to argue upon. Then
even you and those who support your views had nothing to comment.

And I won't blame you, as I used to earlier. When people agree on certain
issues, there is nothing to argue about. People agree that a NREGA is
important or that a Right to Food is important, and therefore we don't
argue.

But you have conveniently forgotten facts only to prove yourself right. I
don't say that Modi has done all things wrong, but this is and will remain a
major blot on his governance and his ideas. And I don't think he understands
development as well.

Rakesh

@ Pawan ji: Even Rajiv Gandhi had sent the army after 3 days to quell the
1984 riots. That didn't stop the violence, because almost all the violence
took place in those 3 days. Same was the case here in Gujarat under Modi.
And as for the appeal, the appeal was followed, as Anupam pointed out later,
by a Gujarat Gaurav Rath Yatra, which was his election campaign.

Modi was belting out statements like 'Hum paanch humare pachees' during his
campaign, in clear violation of all norms of society. He would have done
better to know that as per the only report done on this, more Hindus had
been practising polygamy in India than Muslims. This report based on a
survey conducted in 1974 found out that 1 crore Hindus and 12 lakh Muslims
had indulged in polygamy. (all figures for men).

After that no figures have been obtained. So without figures, Modi has no
right to blame Muslims for having more wives than Hindus, based on his
useless perception-based theory.

Anupam said it right, go and watch the documentary: Final Solution. In one
of his speeches, Modi states that if Godhra would not have happened, not
even one stone would have been thrown. The rest is well understood.

Rakesh
Post by Pawan Durani
Dear Rakesh,
Why you repeating all these, which you have mentioned many times and yet
the investigation going on by both commission and SC. The point here is only
this issue every one want to highlight while other riots swiftly forgotten
that was actually point I have mentioned in my mail in which you replied all
this.
You are proving me right again that only this issue every one want to
highlight and exaggerate.
*Sent:* Wednesday, April 14, 2010 2:38 PM
*To:* Bipin Trivedi
*Cc:* sarai-list
*Subject:* Re: [Reader-list] FW: FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Dear Bipin
You are talking about Godhra. First of all, Godhra is in Gujarat, and in
2002 when that incident took place, Gujarat had a BJP government in the
state whose primary responsibility it was to protect those who lost their
lives in the unfortunate incident.
Secondly, during that time, the Indian Govt. was the BJP-led NDA govt., and
the Railways Minister was Nitish Kumar, the current Chief Minister of Bihar.
It was his and his ministry's responsibility to ensure that those travelling
in any train, including this one, were protected.
Both failed, and the consequences were disastrous.
Let us go further ahead and use the arguments Gujarat police have used.
The Gujarat police initially declared that this was an ISI-led conspiracy
to use local elements and instigate them to carry out this heinous act. Any
such act should have been caught by the intelligence machinery and effective
measures taken to catch the culprits and counter this effort. The fact that
both central intelligence and state intelligence failed to do so, is a
failure of governments both at the centre and the state, both of which are
BJP or BJP-led. So again, the blame goes on the BJP and their governments.
What is also shameful is that a whole pogrom occupied the matters of a
state for so much time which took place because supposedly ISI had a role in
burning of the train. So basically, if the ISI in Pakistan conducts an act
of killing Hindus here, there will be riots. What a shame indeed for the
Indian society and for the Indian state that all that the ISI has to do is
conduct such an act and then wait for a pogrom to take place!
It was of course another matter that till date they have not been able to
prove how this was an ISI conspiracy to destabilize India.
The Gujarat police has also been conveniently changing stands on the Godhra
case. First, they said the train was burnt from outside. When it was stated
by forensic experts that this can't be done and also cited the proof of the
same (being that if the train was burnt from outside, the tracks would also
have been burnt somewhat), the new theory formulated was that the vestibule
was cut and people went in and poured petrol inside. Nobody thought it fit
to realize that in the stone-throwing spree from outside, with the doors
closed, firstly people inside the bogie would have protested and pushed out
those who were pouring kerosene or petrol on the people. Secondly, all
sleeper coaches in such trains are connected and so people could have
escaped through these to other coaches. And most importantly, some people
did manage to escape through the door, though they did get injured due to
stone-throwing. And yes, while cloth rags were thrown inside the bogies, no
passenger eye-witness claimed any petrol or kerosene being thrown on them or
others.
The Gujarat police arrested even a blind person as part of the conspiracy.
And all of these were charged under POTA. Never mind that there was not an
iota of evidence to prove that these people were terrorists or were part of
a conspiracy!
This is about Godhra. Till today, we don't know how this act of burning
took place. We don't know who are the perpetrators. Horror of horrors, we
don't know who all actually lost their lives on that day, since the
identities of some of those who died are still not known (never mind that
the RSS-VHP-BJP-Bajrang Dal combine states that they are karsewaks, without
any evidence to back their claim). And we don't know why unlike in normal
cases, the Railway Ministry didn't institute a commission of inquiry to
investigate the event within 48 hours (this work being done by the
Nanavati-Shah commission).
When the police fails, a whole set of people are not able to get justice.
And a whole set of innocents then find themselves being implicated in false
cases.
But then some people live in the irony of pride of Gujarat.
Rakesh
It's hilarious for you to claim that we have started noting other riots or
pogroms. I don't think anyone with any sense of humanity can ever condone a
riot or a pogrom. Just because I didn't mention it or someone never
mentioned it doesn't mean they support it. First ask them before stating
such things.
For people like you who believe in tit-for-tat, two wrongs make a right.
Since Congress organized 1984 pogrom and got away with it, BJP according to
you also has a right to conduct 2002 pogrom and get away with it. Since
Congress according to you practises corruption, BJP also has a right to
indulge in corruption. And since Congress has a right to indulge in
appeasement of Muslims, BJP has a right to indulge in Hindu appeasement as
well.
It would be good for you to understand that both are wrong, and because you
have done a wrong act doesn't mean I too have a right to commit that wrong
act.
@ Pawan
I wonder what kind of person are you, who claims on one hand to have
suffered at the hands of fundamentalists in Kashmir and also the government,
(forced out of Kashmir, your home), and supporting a mass-murderer like Modi
who has a completely skewed notion of development and was fiddling like Nero
while Gujarat burnt.
I thought victims of tragedies of a similar kind understand each other. But
this notion of yours now makes me think twice about that assertion.
_________________________________________
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Critiques & Collaborations
To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-***@sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.
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Bipin Trivedi
2010-04-14 11:26:12 UTC
Permalink
I have applauding Modi for his efficient Governance ability. Its riot matter
we were talking and only Gujarat riot, not other riot everyone want to
highlight.



Other than riot, issue altogether different. Don't mix up riot and other
governing matters for discussion. For useless scheme like NREGA I have
already mentioned my views.





From: Rakesh Iyer [mailto:***@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 4:25 PM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: sarai-list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE



Dear Bipin

I post these mails in the hope that you would try to be rational and
understand that your faith in Modi is misguided.

As for exaggerating things, I had written mails on Right to Food and NREGA
as well. Then nobody was around here to argue for such things or suggest
better concrete measures. Even you have only such issues to argue upon. Then
even you and those who support your views had nothing to comment.

And I won't blame you, as I used to earlier. When people agree on certain
issues, there is nothing to argue about. People agree that a NREGA is
important or that a Right to Food is important, and therefore we don't
argue.

But you have conveniently forgotten facts only to prove yourself right. I
don't say that Modi has done all things wrong, but this is and will remain a
major blot on his governance and his ideas. And I don't think he understands
development as well.

Rakesh

@ Pawan ji: Even Rajiv Gandhi had sent the army after 3 days to quell the
1984 riots. That didn't stop the violence, because almost all the violence
took place in those 3 days. Same was the case here in Gujarat under Modi.
And as for the appeal, the appeal was followed, as Anupam pointed out later,
by a Gujarat Gaurav Rath Yatra, which was his election campaign.

Modi was belting out statements like 'Hum paanch humare pachees' during his
campaign, in clear violation of all norms of society. He would have done
better to know that as per the only report done on this, more Hindus had
been practising polygamy in India than Muslims. This report based on a
survey conducted in 1974 found out that 1 crore Hindus and 12 lakh Muslims
had indulged in polygamy. (all figures for men).

After that no figures have been obtained. So without figures, Modi has no
right to blame Muslims for having more wives than Hindus, based on his
useless perception-based theory.

Anupam said it right, go and watch the documentary: Final Solution. In one
of his speeches, Modi states that if Godhra would not have happened, not
even one stone would have been thrown. The rest is well understood.

Rakesh



On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 4:07 PM, Bipin Trivedi <***@dataone.in> wrote:

Dear Rakesh,

Why you repeating all these, which you have mentioned many times and yet the
investigation going on by both commission and SC. The point here is only
this issue every one want to highlight while other riots swiftly forgotten
that was actually point I have mentioned in my mail in which you replied all
this.

You are proving me right again that only this issue every one want to
highlight and exaggerate.





From: Rakesh Iyer [mailto:***@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 2:38 PM


To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: sarai-list

Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE



Dear Bipin

You are talking about Godhra. First of all, Godhra is in Gujarat, and in
2002 when that incident took place, Gujarat had a BJP government in the
state whose primary responsibility it was to protect those who lost their
lives in the unfortunate incident.

Secondly, during that time, the Indian Govt. was the BJP-led NDA govt., and
the Railways Minister was Nitish Kumar, the current Chief Minister of Bihar.
It was his and his ministry's responsibility to ensure that those travelling
in any train, including this one, were protected.

Both failed, and the consequences were disastrous.

Let us go further ahead and use the arguments Gujarat police have used.

The Gujarat police initially declared that this was an ISI-led conspiracy to
use local elements and instigate them to carry out this heinous act. Any
such act should have been caught by the intelligence machinery and effective
measures taken to catch the culprits and counter this effort. The fact that
both central intelligence and state intelligence failed to do so, is a
failure of governments both at the centre and the state, both of which are
BJP or BJP-led. So again, the blame goes on the BJP and their governments.

What is also shameful is that a whole pogrom occupied the matters of a state
for so much time which took place because supposedly ISI had a role in
burning of the train. So basically, if the ISI in Pakistan conducts an act
of killing Hindus here, there will be riots. What a shame indeed for the
Indian society and for the Indian state that all that the ISI has to do is
conduct such an act and then wait for a pogrom to take place!

It was of course another matter that till date they have not been able to
prove how this was an ISI conspiracy to destabilize India.

The Gujarat police has also been conveniently changing stands on the Godhra
case. First, they said the train was burnt from outside. When it was stated
by forensic experts that this can't be done and also cited the proof of the
same (being that if the train was burnt from outside, the tracks would also
have been burnt somewhat), the new theory formulated was that the vestibule
was cut and people went in and poured petrol inside. Nobody thought it fit
to realize that in the stone-throwing spree from outside, with the doors
closed, firstly people inside the bogie would have protested and pushed out
those who were pouring kerosene or petrol on the people. Secondly, all
sleeper coaches in such trains are connected and so people could have
escaped through these to other coaches. And most importantly, some people
did manage to escape through the door, though they did get injured due to
stone-throwing. And yes, while cloth rags were thrown inside the bogies, no
passenger eye-witness claimed any petrol or kerosene being thrown on them or
others.

The Gujarat police arrested even a blind person as part of the conspiracy.
And all of these were charged under POTA. Never mind that there was not an
iota of evidence to prove that these people were terrorists or were part of
a conspiracy!

This is about Godhra. Till today, we don't know how this act of burning took
place. We don't know who are the perpetrators. Horror of horrors, we don't
know who all actually lost their lives on that day, since the identities of
some of those who died are still not known (never mind that the
RSS-VHP-BJP-Bajrang Dal combine states that they are karsewaks, without any
evidence to back their claim). And we don't know why unlike in normal cases,
the Railway Ministry didn't institute a commission of inquiry to investigate
the event within 48 hours (this work being done by the Nanavati-Shah
commission).

When the police fails, a whole set of people are not able to get justice.
And a whole set of innocents then find themselves being implicated in false
cases.

But then some people live in the irony of pride of Gujarat.

Rakesh

P.S:

It's hilarious for you to claim that we have started noting other riots or
pogroms. I don't think anyone with any sense of humanity can ever condone a
riot or a pogrom. Just because I didn't mention it or someone never
mentioned it doesn't mean they support it. First ask them before stating
such things.

For people like you who believe in tit-for-tat, two wrongs make a right.
Since Congress organized 1984 pogrom and got away with it, BJP according to
you also has a right to conduct 2002 pogrom and get away with it. Since
Congress according to you practises corruption, BJP also has a right to
indulge in corruption. And since Congress has a right to indulge in
appeasement of Muslims, BJP has a right to indulge in Hindu appeasement as
well.

It would be good for you to understand that both are wrong, and because you
have done a wrong act doesn't mean I too have a right to commit that wrong
act.

@ Pawan

I wonder what kind of person are you, who claims on one hand to have
suffered at the hands of fundamentalists in Kashmir and also the government,
(forced out of Kashmir, your home), and supporting a mass-murderer like Modi
who has a completely skewed notion of development and was fiddling like Nero
while Gujarat burnt.

I thought victims of tragedies of a similar kind understand each other. But
this notion of yours now makes me think twice about that assertion.








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Critiques & Collaborations
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Rakesh Iyer
2010-04-14 11:29:46 UTC
Permalink
Dear Bipin

I now remember that view. That is a hopeless view and a narrow way of
looking at NREGA.

If you want to talk about Sikh riots, we can have a separate list as well.
You can discuss about it. But I guess there would hardly be anything, since
both of us agree that Congress is culpable for those. Infact, for me that is
a pogrom like 2002 Gujarat or 1989 Bhagalpur. Still on any of the issues we
can discuss, if you like. Just a request that put such things on a separate
list.

Rakesh
_________________________________________
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Critiques & Collaborations
To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-***@sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.
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Bipin Trivedi
2010-04-14 11:47:45 UTC
Permalink
Dynasty or congress is only after their vote bank only since independence
and not at all worry for real poor people or development. By hook or crook,
they want to implement pro-poor schemes like NAREGA without looking into its
long term implications on people's own self development, efficiency,
economic conditions. Such huge amount used in schemes of which 60/70% money
will be wasted, while the same if used for all types of infrastructure
development would have much more long term benefit even on poor. It is
better to invest this money for huge power plant and give power at
subsidized rate even it makes loss than also it is beneficial instead of
these popular schemes which shows lollipop to poor without any long term
benefit. The problem is that poor cannot have vision to think long term
benefit and congress taking such advantage only since independence, so the
poor remains poor only. I am sure such scheme will not uplift them and one
has to rethink after huge spending. However, after several years or perhaps
a decade, realization will be there after wasting huge money on the schemes
like NAREGA.





From: Rakesh Iyer [mailto:***@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:00 PM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: sarai-list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE



Dear Bipin

I now remember that view. That is a hopeless view and a narrow way of
looking at NREGA.

If you want to talk about Sikh riots, we can have a separate list as well.
You can discuss about it. But I guess there would hardly be anything, since
both of us agree that Congress is culpable for those. Infact, for me that is
a pogrom like 2002 Gujarat or 1989 Bhagalpur. Still on any of the issues we
can discuss, if you like. Just a request that put such things on a separate
list.

Rakesh

_________________________________________
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Critiques & Collaborations
To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-***@sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.
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Rakesh Iyer
2010-04-14 12:20:41 UTC
Permalink
Dear Bipin

Now that you have mentioned NREGA, let me state why it is actually needed.
And by the way, as per a constitutional amendment, it has now been changed
to MGREGA (Mahatma Gandhi Rural Employment Guarantee Act).

My response:

1) The passage of NREGA or MGREGA was not a gift of Sonia Gandhi which she
had conceived on her own. Civil society organizations had been fighting and
struggling over a long period of time to introduce this act. Many people
across the country undertook struggles and all kinds of yatras to put
pressure on the govt. and get their act passed. And leading them were people
who were not involved with any political party, but belonging to civil
society and important organizations like the PUCL, the MKSS and others.

To project NREGA as an initiative of the Gandhi dynasty is to discredit all
those who fought on the road for ensuring that this act was introduced in
Parliament. It's a discredit to all those Indian citizens who are demanding
their right to livelihood and are not able to live properly as they lack
even the basic amenities of life.

2) The act obligates the Indian state to provide 100 days of employment to
any person in rural areas who has asked for it, or give an unemployment
allowance if it has not been able to provide employment to the person as
demanded. Now you are stating that this act is useless. I would say not.
Here is the reason.

Many people in rural areas are employed either as agricultural laborers, or
are seen migrating off to urban areas in search of work. Most of these
laborers are uneducated and unskilled, and hence they will not get work in
the formal or organized sector. They will get work in the unorganized
sector, which is mostly under contractors working on some project involving
construction. Or they gain employment in other areas. But most of them are
found to work for pretty low wages. This was proved by Arjun Sengupta
committee report which was constituted to deliberate upon a social security
scheme for workers in the unorganized sector. They found that 77% of the
population (2004-2005) was living on less than Rs. 20 per day, which is
ridiculous and speaks of the inequality entrenched in our society.

Most of these people were living in worse off conditions (mainly slums
without water or sanitation provisions for them). They had no social safety
nets (either education or health) to fall back upon. They had no land in the
rural areas as well which could act as an asset for them under times of
distress. They had no protection under labor laws as well since they don't
come under the organized sector. And they with little wages found it tough
to live in urban conditions with higher prices for same style of life as in
rural areas.

The biggest problems were with not only their lack of education, but also
that their children couldn't be educated since they didn't have one place of
residence. They had to move to their villages when agricultural work was
available and then go back to cities when it wasn't. The agricultural wages
paid were quite low, and since agricultural reforms haven't been undertaken
in most states (including the famous Gujarat which is worshipped by some
members in this forum, and the only exceptions being West Bengal, Kerala and
Tripura where the Left has been dominant), these people were barely able to
carry on their lives there.

A social dimension related to this is that most of these people who were
poor and working as agricultural laborers belonged to the backward castes as
also the SC's, the ST's and also the Muslims. Moreover, they had to also
face discrimination in the society, and this economic hardship put them in a
more precarious situation.

The best example to this impoverishment in rural areas can be seen in hunger
deaths in the states of India, which the state govts. deny but these
continue to take place, particularly in north India.

There was no protection possible in any form of labor they undertook to
earn, either at time of accidents or in the form of insurance.

The NREGA or MGREGA is therefore the Right to Employment. Now every person
can live in his/her rural background and get work or unemployment allowance
to earn a decent standard of living. Now they can send their children off to
school in the hope that their children can come up in life and become
stronger economically so that they won't have to depend on NREGA or MGREGA.
They will be no longe dying of the lack of food, which they can now buy as
they have money in their hands.

But the NREGA is not only ensuring that a basic human right, the right of
livelihood with dignity can be secured. It is also sound economics. How?

Simple. If the MGREGA were to be implemented well, then people can earn
money. It's not that this money will only be spent on food, though a
substantial portion will be spent on food. It will and can be spent on other
things as well. Here lies a market for those wanting to produce goods for
these people, like say small sachets of shampoos or toothbrushs and small
dant-manjans. You can sell it. And they have the capacity to buy it. The end
result is an expansion of markets.

Sending of children can help in two ways. One, it gets the society educated
and hence raises the ability of children to lead lives they can value (which
is what development should be about, not about making power plants and dams
which displace people arbitrarily just because they are poor. Why not
construct power plants at Ambani's and Tata's homes? Will they agree?)
Secondly these children can hope to get a better job tomorrow and earn more
economically, which means they can buy more goods. In other words, a huge
expansion of the market economics, and again it helps the economy as it
boosts demand and hence more goods can be produced.

You raise an important issue finally, that of corruption. Corruption is
there in all departments of the government. There are only two ways to solve
it:

i) One way is to completely dissolve all government and administration. Then
there will be no corruption, and there will be no MGREGA. But ironically we
do need the government, even the capitalists. Under capitalism, government
has to perform the role of enforcing certain rights like the Right to
Property and also ensuring the rule of law so that companies are able to
conduct their activities with full assurance of security. Otherwise they
have to be closed down.

Should we completely forsake all governance and leave it to people to govern
themselves? No. The whole country and whole world will be in chaos. That's
not what we want. We can accept anarchy (lack of order-enforcing authority)
but no govt. means sooner or later we will be in chaos. (Disorder and
violence and hungama all around).

ii) Try to bring in steps which introduce transparency in the govt. so that
corruption can be reduced. That is what we should try in our approach. But
unfortunately that is not what you hint at or look at.


So what do you want Bipin ji:

Should we decide not to ever have a government, since corruption is
inevitable wherever there is government? Is that necessary to wipe out
corruption?

Or should we try and bring about transparency measures which will remove and
root out corruption and therefore ensure that this act is actually
functioning on the ground?

Let me state that the latter should be our concern. And if you want to know
the answer why, it is very simple. On this forum, I have repeatedly used
Aashish's words (my friend and a member of this forum), and he said it
beautifully, that a democracy can only function, when those who have power
can care for those who lack power. In other words, we are educated, and we
should be concerned about those who are not and are unempowered. We should
help them by bringing such acts because these are the social safety nets for
the poor which can help them. And moreover, it's not our dole or charity to
them, it's their right to work so that they can earn enough and get the
basic necessities of their life. It's their basic human right, as per the
Universal Declaration of Human rights, stated in the UN charter, to which we
are a signatory as a nation-state.

Mind you, MGREGA has disadvantages. It can only help those who can provide
labor. The disabled can't work, and MGREGA can't help them. Similarly, Rs.
100 may be too low as a wage at a time of high inflation when PDS doesn't
work well in villages for food distribution and the market has not reached
the villages. But the solution is not dismantling NREGA. It is in expansion
and orienting it with transparency measures to ensure it works,.

Otherwise, governments and police machinery in India doesn't work by and
large..And that way Bipin ji, we should remove all government and police
machinery in India so that we can stop wasting of public funds and remove
all corruption from society.

Rakesh
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Bipin Trivedi
2010-04-15 09:46:41 UTC
Permalink
I request all the members to read my views on NAREGA or MGREGA. I have tried
to make very brief so you cannot have to spare your much time. I also
request to express your views.



Dear Rakesh,

Thanks at least you agreed that MGREGA is not a gift of Sonia or UPA, since
in earlier discussion you gave credit to Sonia. But, UPA/she implemented it
that is what their main election campaign and poor people comes in it.
Politician particularly congress never thought on long term benefit since
independent, though their few intellectual knows/warned about it negativity,
but they have ignore and implemented it.

Now, you rightly gave credit to others who fought for it since many years
and same persons approached to NDA also to implement it, but NDA looking to
long vision and benefit choose to initiate and invest in infrastructure.
They were knowing that infrastructure development is long process and will
get its fruit after long period and there is no short term benefit and
probably might affect in the next election though they gone for root based
development. THIS IS REAL VISIONARY STEP, NDA ADOPTED WITHOUT LOOKING INTO
VOTE BANK POLITICS.

By adopting countrywide infrastructure development, employment will be there
to local people only in the form of labor for more than 100 days (which is
limit for MGREGA), since they are un-educated. Since the infrastructure
development will be with the partnership of private companies or contractual
basis, the corruption level will be very low compared to huge wastage in
MGREGA about 60/70%.

We can have corruption discussion sometime later.

Disadvantages of this scheme:

(1) In this scheme, you will noticed after few years that govt. officials
and politician becomes more richer and poor remain poor only. In few years
or decade, if poor will not improve their standard of living, who will be
responsible and I am sure this will going to happen.

(2) ANOTHER MAIN DISADVANTAGE is non-availability of labor in AGRICULTURE
since they will divert to this MGREGA scheme. One of the reason for reduce
in crop production is this also and it will reduce further this year also
leads to increment in the food prices and inflation. Think over it
positively.

(3) By such scheme you are making people lazy. They get assurance to get
work from govt. and did not try their own will to do something, which
affects people self improvement, efficiency which is most necessary to grow
and develop healthily.

Any nation cannot grow healthily, unless it utilize their resources
including skilled/unskilled man power in very efficient and disciplined
manner. Please note that all the schemes/subsidies adopted by the govt. will
do not have any impact unless and until people improve themselves. Since
independence, many schemes/subsidies were adopted, which did not uplift poor
much.

You are talking about agriculture reforms not adopted by Gujarat. Please
note that Gujarat agriculture growth is 14% and farmers here are much
happier than anywhere else. To make something like agriculture reforms by
way of laws is not only criteria for agriculture progress. As you mentioned
WB, Tripura, Kerala adopted such reforms what is the progress there in
agriculture. WB and Tripura are in worst situation. I don't say Narendra
Modi achieved everything or what he is doing everything is right. Lots of
thing yet to be do in many criteria.



Thanks

Bipin





From: Rakesh Iyer [mailto:***@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:51 PM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: sarai-list
Subject: Re: NAREGA



Dear Bipin

Now that you have mentioned NREGA, let me state why it is actually needed.
And by the way, as per a constitutional amendment, it has now been changed
to MGREGA (Mahatma Gandhi Rural Employment Guarantee Act).

My response:

1) The passage of NREGA or MGREGA was not a gift of Sonia Gandhi which she
had conceived on her own. Civil society organizations had been fighting and
struggling over a long period of time to introduce this act. Many people
across the country undertook struggles and all kinds of yatras to put
pressure on the govt. and get their act passed. And leading them were people
who were not involved with any political party, but belonging to civil
society and important organizations like the PUCL, the MKSS and others.

To project NREGA as an initiative of the Gandhi dynasty is to discredit all
those who fought on the road for ensuring that this act was introduced in
Parliament. It's a discredit to all those Indian citizens who are demanding
their right to livelihood and are not able to live properly as they lack
even the basic amenities of life.

2) The act obligates the Indian state to provide 100 days of employment to
any person in rural areas who has asked for it, or give an unemployment
allowance if it has not been able to provide employment to the person as
demanded. Now you are stating that this act is useless. I would say not.
Here is the reason.

Many people in rural areas are employed either as agricultural laborers, or
are seen migrating off to urban areas in search of work. Most of these
laborers are uneducated and unskilled, and hence they will not get work in
the formal or organized sector. They will get work in the unorganized
sector, which is mostly under contractors working on some project involving
construction. Or they gain employment in other areas. But most of them are
found to work for pretty low wages. This was proved by Arjun Sengupta
committee report which was constituted to deliberate upon a social security
scheme for workers in the unorganized sector. They found that 77% of the
population (2004-2005) was living on less than Rs. 20 per day, which is
ridiculous and speaks of the inequality entrenched in our society.

Most of these people were living in worse off conditions (mainly slums
without water or sanitation provisions for them). They had no social safety
nets (either education or health) to fall back upon. They had no land in the
rural areas as well which could act as an asset for them under times of
distress. They had no protection under labor laws as well since they don't
come under the organized sector. And they with little wages found it tough
to live in urban conditions with higher prices for same style of life as in
rural areas.

The biggest problems were with not only their lack of education, but also
that their children couldn't be educated since they didn't have one place of
residence. They had to move to their villages when agricultural work was
available and then go back to cities when it wasn't. The agricultural wages
paid were quite low, and since agricultural reforms haven't been undertaken
in most states (including the famous Gujarat which is worshipped by some
members in this forum, and the only exceptions being West Bengal, Kerala and
Tripura where the Left has been dominant), these people were barely able to
carry on their lives there.

A social dimension related to this is that most of these people who were
poor and working as agricultural laborers belonged to the backward castes as
also the SC's, the ST's and also the Muslims. Moreover, they had to also
face discrimination in the society, and this economic hardship put them in a
more precarious situation.

The best example to this impoverishment in rural areas can be seen in hunger
deaths in the states of India, which the state govts. deny but these
continue to take place, particularly in north India.

There was no protection possible in any form of labor they undertook to
earn, either at time of accidents or in the form of insurance.

The NREGA or MGREGA is therefore the Right to Employment. Now every person
can live in his/her rural background and get work or unemployment allowance
to earn a decent standard of living. Now they can send their children off to
school in the hope that their children can come up in life and become
stronger economically so that they won't have to depend on NREGA or MGREGA.
They will be no longe dying of the lack of food, which they can now buy as
they have money in their hands.

But the NREGA is not only ensuring that a basic human right, the right of
livelihood with dignity can be secured. It is also sound economics. How?

Simple. If the MGREGA were to be implemented well, then people can earn
money. It's not that this money will only be spent on food, though a
substantial portion will be spent on food. It will and can be spent on other
things as well. Here lies a market for those wanting to produce goods for
these people, like say small sachets of shampoos or toothbrushs and small
dant-manjans. You can sell it. And they have the capacity to buy it. The end
result is an expansion of markets.

Sending of children can help in two ways. One, it gets the society educated
and hence raises the ability of children to lead lives they can value (which
is what development should be about, not about making power plants and dams
which displace people arbitrarily just because they are poor. Why not
construct power plants at Ambani's and Tata's homes? Will they agree?)
Secondly these children can hope to get a better job tomorrow and earn more
economically, which means they can buy more goods. In other words, a huge
expansion of the market economics, and again it helps the economy as it
boosts demand and hence more goods can be produced.

You raise an important issue finally, that of corruption. Corruption is
there in all departments of the government. There are only two ways to solve
it:

i) One way is to completely dissolve all government and administration. Then
there will be no corruption, and there will be no MGREGA. But ironically we
do need the government, even the capitalists. Under capitalism, government
has to perform the role of enforcing certain rights like the Right to
Property and also ensuring the rule of law so that companies are able to
conduct their activities with full assurance of security. Otherwise they
have to be closed down.

Should we completely forsake all governance and leave it to people to govern
themselves? No. The whole country and whole world will be in chaos. That's
not what we want. We can accept anarchy (lack of order-enforcing authority)
but no govt. means sooner or later we will be in chaos. (Disorder and
violence and hungama all around).

ii) Try to bring in steps which introduce transparency in the govt. so that
corruption can be reduced. That is what we should try in our approach. But
unfortunately that is not what you hint at or look at.


So what do you want Bipin ji:

Should we decide not to ever have a government, since corruption is
inevitable wherever there is government? Is that necessary to wipe out
corruption?

Or should we try and bring about transparency measures which will remove and
root out corruption and therefore ensure that this act is actually
functioning on the ground?

Let me state that the latter should be our concern. And if you want to know
the answer why, it is very simple. On this forum, I have repeatedly used
Aashish's words (my friend and a member of this forum), and he said it
beautifully, that a democracy can only function, when those who have power
can care for those who lack power. In other words, we are educated, and we
should be concerned about those who are not and are unempowered. We should
help them by bringing such acts because these are the social safety nets for
the poor which can help them. And moreover, it's not our dole or charity to
them, it's their right to work so that they can earn enough and get the
basic necessities of their life. It's their basic human right, as per the
Universal Declaration of Human rights, stated in the UN charter, to which we
are a signatory as a nation-state.

Mind you, MGREGA has disadvantages. It can only help those who can provide
labor. The disabled can't work, and MGREGA can't help them. Similarly, Rs.
100 may be too low as a wage at a time of high inflation when PDS doesn't
work well in villages for food distribution and the market has not reached
the villages. But the solution is not dismantling NREGA. It is in expansion
and orienting it with transparency measures to ensure it works,.

Otherwise, governments and police machinery in India doesn't work by and
large..And that way Bipin ji, we should remove all government and police
machinery in India so that we can stop wasting of public funds and remove
all corruption from society.

Rakesh





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anupam chakravartty
2010-04-15 10:55:58 UTC
Permalink
Bipin,

I doubt your sincerity in posting your views about NREGA. I have no idea
about other states but the scheme here in Gujarat has flopped majorly
because of the apathy of local administration. it turns out that local
administration officials, in regions such as Dahod and Panchmahal, which has
about 70 to 80 per cent of tribal population, did not pay the farmers for 18
months at a stretch. incidentally, in places such as Fatehpura taluka, where
1800 wells have been dug under NREGA, 600 just have water. the local NREGA
officials, which is usually headed by the District Development Officer (in
case of Gujarat) and District Rural Development Agency (under the state
government) who were supposed to see the feasibility of digging by
conducting soil tests and water table checks gave permission to dig up as
many wells as the farmers wished for. after all, it is a payment guarantee
scheme in which 50 percent is cost of labour and 50 percent would be the
cost of material. since the start of the scheme about 3385 farmers from
Fatehpura dug up 1800 wells in the semi arid quartzite soil where in some
places people have to dig as 100 feet to get water. so deep because, there
was a steady decline of the water table in this region and lack of
substantial rainfall in the past two years. in december, 3385 farmers under
NREGA workers' union filed a complaint to the Dahod district collector
asking why there were no payments for the wells which were being dug.

after the district developmental official lodged an enquiry into the matter
it was found that the two local sarpanchs, one lokayukta, two taluka
development officials, one bank manager (according to a police complaint
filed at the Fatehpura Police Station) was involved in removing names of at
least 1000 farmers from the rosters. in some villages, for example, Dungar,
farmers had actually pawned their lands so that they can pay for the other
workers. this proves that how popular is the scheme. Dahod district in
Gujarat which is considered as one of most underdeveloped taluka in India
according various reports, has 30,000 workers working for this scheme says
the DDO of Dahod.

Can i not infer it is because of the lack of support from Gujarat government
as local administration officials are turning it upside down by not paying
the NREGA workers? But i would not because the some of these officials
especially in adivasi dominated regions take advantage of their innocence
and rob them everyday. it has nothing to do central/state divide or NDA/UPA
divide.

You have not studied any of the organizations which are implementing this
scheme in India. I recommend that you go through the scheme and understand
its finer points then come back with your conclusions.

thanks anupam
Post by Bipin Trivedi
I request all the members to read my views on NAREGA or MGREGA. I have tried
to make very brief so you cannot have to spare your much time. I also
request to express your views.
Dear Rakesh,
Thanks at least you agreed that MGREGA is not a gift of Sonia or UPA, since
in earlier discussion you gave credit to Sonia. But, UPA/she implemented it
that is what their main election campaign and poor people comes in it.
Politician particularly congress never thought on long term benefit since
independent, though their few intellectual knows/warned about it negativity,
but they have ignore and implemented it.
Now, you rightly gave credit to others who fought for it since many years
and same persons approached to NDA also to implement it, but NDA looking to
long vision and benefit choose to initiate and invest in infrastructure.
They were knowing that infrastructure development is long process and will
get its fruit after long period and there is no short term benefit and
probably might affect in the next election though they gone for root based
development. THIS IS REAL VISIONARY STEP, NDA ADOPTED WITHOUT LOOKING INTO
VOTE BANK POLITICS.
By adopting countrywide infrastructure development, employment will be there
to local people only in the form of labor for more than 100 days (which is
limit for MGREGA), since they are un-educated. Since the infrastructure
development will be with the partnership of private companies or contractual
basis, the corruption level will be very low compared to huge wastage in
MGREGA about 60/70%.
We can have corruption discussion sometime later.
(1) In this scheme, you will noticed after few years that govt. officials
and politician becomes more richer and poor remain poor only. In few years
or decade, if poor will not improve their standard of living, who will be
responsible and I am sure this will going to happen.
(2) ANOTHER MAIN DISADVANTAGE is non-availability of labor in AGRICULTURE
since they will divert to this MGREGA scheme. One of the reason for reduce
in crop production is this also and it will reduce further this year also
leads to increment in the food prices and inflation. Think over it
positively.
(3) By such scheme you are making people lazy. They get assurance to get
work from govt. and did not try their own will to do something, which
affects people self improvement, efficiency which is most necessary to grow
and develop healthily.
Any nation cannot grow healthily, unless it utilize their resources
including skilled/unskilled man power in very efficient and disciplined
manner. Please note that all the schemes/subsidies adopted by the govt. will
do not have any impact unless and until people improve themselves. Since
independence, many schemes/subsidies were adopted, which did not uplift poor
much.
You are talking about agriculture reforms not adopted by Gujarat. Please
note that Gujarat agriculture growth is 14% and farmers here are much
happier than anywhere else. To make something like agriculture reforms by
way of laws is not only criteria for agriculture progress. As you mentioned
WB, Tripura, Kerala adopted such reforms what is the progress there in
agriculture. WB and Tripura are in worst situation. I don't say Narendra
Modi achieved everything or what he is doing everything is right. Lots of
thing yet to be do in many criteria.
Thanks
Bipin
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:51 PM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: sarai-list
Subject: Re: NAREGA
Dear Bipin
Now that you have mentioned NREGA, let me state why it is actually needed.
And by the way, as per a constitutional amendment, it has now been changed
to MGREGA (Mahatma Gandhi Rural Employment Guarantee Act).
1) The passage of NREGA or MGREGA was not a gift of Sonia Gandhi which she
had conceived on her own. Civil society organizations had been fighting and
struggling over a long period of time to introduce this act. Many people
across the country undertook struggles and all kinds of yatras to put
pressure on the govt. and get their act passed. And leading them were people
who were not involved with any political party, but belonging to civil
society and important organizations like the PUCL, the MKSS and others.
To project NREGA as an initiative of the Gandhi dynasty is to discredit all
those who fought on the road for ensuring that this act was introduced in
Parliament. It's a discredit to all those Indian citizens who are demanding
their right to livelihood and are not able to live properly as they lack
even the basic amenities of life.
2) The act obligates the Indian state to provide 100 days of employment to
any person in rural areas who has asked for it, or give an unemployment
allowance if it has not been able to provide employment to the person as
demanded. Now you are stating that this act is useless. I would say not.
Here is the reason.
Many people in rural areas are employed either as agricultural laborers, or
are seen migrating off to urban areas in search of work. Most of these
laborers are uneducated and unskilled, and hence they will not get work in
the formal or organized sector. They will get work in the unorganized
sector, which is mostly under contractors working on some project involving
construction. Or they gain employment in other areas. But most of them are
found to work for pretty low wages. This was proved by Arjun Sengupta
committee report which was constituted to deliberate upon a social security
scheme for workers in the unorganized sector. They found that 77% of the
population (2004-2005) was living on less than Rs. 20 per day, which is
ridiculous and speaks of the inequality entrenched in our society.
Most of these people were living in worse off conditions (mainly slums
without water or sanitation provisions for them). They had no social safety
nets (either education or health) to fall back upon. They had no land in the
rural areas as well which could act as an asset for them under times of
distress. They had no protection under labor laws as well since they don't
come under the organized sector. And they with little wages found it tough
to live in urban conditions with higher prices for same style of life as in
rural areas.
The biggest problems were with not only their lack of education, but also
that their children couldn't be educated since they didn't have one place of
residence. They had to move to their villages when agricultural work was
available and then go back to cities when it wasn't. The agricultural wages
paid were quite low, and since agricultural reforms haven't been undertaken
in most states (including the famous Gujarat which is worshipped by some
members in this forum, and the only exceptions being West Bengal, Kerala and
Tripura where the Left has been dominant), these people were barely able to
carry on their lives there.
A social dimension related to this is that most of these people who were
poor and working as agricultural laborers belonged to the backward castes as
also the SC's, the ST's and also the Muslims. Moreover, they had to also
face discrimination in the society, and this economic hardship put them in a
more precarious situation.
The best example to this impoverishment in rural areas can be seen in hunger
deaths in the states of India, which the state govts. deny but these
continue to take place, particularly in north India.
There was no protection possible in any form of labor they undertook to
earn, either at time of accidents or in the form of insurance.
The NREGA or MGREGA is therefore the Right to Employment. Now every person
can live in his/her rural background and get work or unemployment allowance
to earn a decent standard of living. Now they can send their children off to
school in the hope that their children can come up in life and become
stronger economically so that they won't have to depend on NREGA or MGREGA.
They will be no longe dying of the lack of food, which they can now buy as
they have money in their hands.
But the NREGA is not only ensuring that a basic human right, the right of
livelihood with dignity can be secured. It is also sound economics. How?
Simple. If the MGREGA were to be implemented well, then people can earn
money. It's not that this money will only be spent on food, though a
substantial portion will be spent on food. It will and can be spent on other
things as well. Here lies a market for those wanting to produce goods for
these people, like say small sachets of shampoos or toothbrushs and small
dant-manjans. You can sell it. And they have the capacity to buy it. The end
result is an expansion of markets.
Sending of children can help in two ways. One, it gets the society educated
and hence raises the ability of children to lead lives they can value (which
is what development should be about, not about making power plants and dams
which displace people arbitrarily just because they are poor. Why not
construct power plants at Ambani's and Tata's homes? Will they agree?)
Secondly these children can hope to get a better job tomorrow and earn more
economically, which means they can buy more goods. In other words, a huge
expansion of the market economics, and again it helps the economy as it
boosts demand and hence more goods can be produced.
You raise an important issue finally, that of corruption. Corruption is
there in all departments of the government. There are only two ways to solve
i) One way is to completely dissolve all government and administration. Then
there will be no corruption, and there will be no MGREGA. But ironically we
do need the government, even the capitalists. Under capitalism, government
has to perform the role of enforcing certain rights like the Right to
Property and also ensuring the rule of law so that companies are able to
conduct their activities with full assurance of security. Otherwise they
have to be closed down.
Should we completely forsake all governance and leave it to people to govern
themselves? No. The whole country and whole world will be in chaos. That's
not what we want. We can accept anarchy (lack of order-enforcing authority)
but no govt. means sooner or later we will be in chaos. (Disorder and
violence and hungama all around).
ii) Try to bring in steps which introduce transparency in the govt. so that
corruption can be reduced. That is what we should try in our approach. But
unfortunately that is not what you hint at or look at.
Should we decide not to ever have a government, since corruption is
inevitable wherever there is government? Is that necessary to wipe out
corruption?
Or should we try and bring about transparency measures which will remove and
root out corruption and therefore ensure that this act is actually
functioning on the ground?
Let me state that the latter should be our concern. And if you want to know
the answer why, it is very simple. On this forum, I have repeatedly used
Aashish's words (my friend and a member of this forum), and he said it
beautifully, that a democracy can only function, when those who have power
can care for those who lack power. In other words, we are educated, and we
should be concerned about those who are not and are unempowered. We should
help them by bringing such acts because these are the social safety nets for
the poor which can help them. And moreover, it's not our dole or charity to
them, it's their right to work so that they can earn enough and get the
basic necessities of their life. It's their basic human right, as per the
Universal Declaration of Human rights, stated in the UN charter, to which we
are a signatory as a nation-state.
Mind you, MGREGA has disadvantages. It can only help those who can provide
labor. The disabled can't work, and MGREGA can't help them. Similarly, Rs.
100 may be too low as a wage at a time of high inflation when PDS doesn't
work well in villages for food distribution and the market has not reached
the villages. But the solution is not dismantling NREGA. It is in expansion
and orienting it with transparency measures to ensure it works,.
Otherwise, governments and police machinery in India doesn't work by and
large..And that way Bipin ji, we should remove all government and police
machinery in India so that we can stop wasting of public funds and remove
all corruption from society.
Rakesh
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List ar
Pawan Durani
2010-04-14 11:37:23 UTC
Permalink
Dear Bipin Bhai ,

You have failed to understand of how certain people have very
conveniently diverted the issue away from Dantewada and naxalism by
focusing on Gujarat discussion .

Unfortunately , you became a willing companion.

Pawan
Post by Bipin Trivedi
I have applauding Modi for his efficient Governance ability. Its riot matter
we were talking and only Gujarat riot, not other riot everyone want to
highlight.
Other than riot, issue altogether different. Don't mix up riot and other
governing matters for discussion. For useless scheme like NREGA I have
already mentioned my views.
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 4:25 PM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: sarai-list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Dear Bipin
I post these mails in the hope that you would try to be rational and
understand that your faith in Modi is misguided.
As for exaggerating things, I had written mails on Right to Food and NREGA
as well. Then nobody was around here to argue for such things or suggest
better concrete measures. Even you have only such issues to argue upon. Then
even you and those who support your views had nothing to comment.
And I won't blame you, as I used to earlier. When people agree on certain
issues, there is nothing to argue about. People agree that a NREGA is
important or that a Right to Food is important, and therefore we don't
argue.
But you have conveniently forgotten facts only to prove yourself right. I
don't say that Modi has done all things wrong, but this is and will remain a
major blot on his governance and his ideas. And I don't think he understands
development as well.
Rakesh
@ Pawan ji: Even Rajiv Gandhi had sent the army after 3 days to quell the
1984 riots. That didn't stop the violence, because almost all the violence
took place in those 3 days. Same was the case here in Gujarat under Modi.
And as for the appeal, the appeal was followed, as Anupam pointed out later,
by a Gujarat Gaurav Rath Yatra, which was his election campaign.
Modi was belting out statements like 'Hum paanch humare pachees' during his
campaign, in clear violation of all norms of society. He would have done
better to know that as per the only report done on this, more Hindus had
been practising polygamy in India than Muslims. This report based on a
survey conducted in 1974 found out that 1 crore Hindus and 12 lakh Muslims
had indulged in polygamy. (all figures for men).
After that no figures have been obtained. So without figures, Modi has no
right to blame Muslims for having more wives than Hindus, based on his
useless perception-based theory.
Anupam said it right, go and watch the documentary: Final Solution. In one
of his speeches, Modi states that if Godhra would not have happened, not
even one stone would have been thrown. The rest is well understood.
Rakesh
Dear Rakesh,
Why you repeating all these, which you have mentioned many times and yet the
investigation going on by both commission and SC. The point here is only
this issue every one want to highlight while other riots swiftly forgotten
that was actually point I have mentioned in my mail in which you replied all
this.
You are proving me right again that only this issue every one want to
highlight and exaggerate.
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 2:38 PM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: sarai-list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Dear Bipin
You are talking about Godhra. First of all, Godhra is in Gujarat, and in
2002 when that incident took place, Gujarat had a BJP government in the
state whose primary responsibility it was to protect those who lost their
lives in the unfortunate incident.
Secondly, during that time, the Indian Govt. was the BJP-led NDA govt., and
the Railways Minister was Nitish Kumar, the current Chief Minister of Bihar.
It was his and his ministry's responsibility to ensure that those travelling
in any train, including this one, were protected.
Both failed, and the consequences were disastrous.
Let us go further ahead and use the arguments Gujarat police have used.
The Gujarat police initially declared that this was an ISI-led conspiracy to
use local elements and instigate them to carry out this heinous act. Any
such act should have been caught by the intelligence machinery and effective
measures taken to catch the culprits and counter this effort. The fact that
both central intelligence and state intelligence failed to do so, is a
failure of governments both at the centre and the state, both of which are
BJP or BJP-led. So again, the blame goes on the BJP and their governments.
What is also shameful is that a whole pogrom occupied the matters of a state
for so much time which took place because supposedly ISI had a role in
burning of the train. So basically, if the ISI in Pakistan conducts an act
of killing Hindus here, there will be riots. What a shame indeed for the
Indian society and for the Indian state that all that the ISI has to do is
conduct such an act and then wait for a pogrom to take place!
It was of course another matter that till date they have not been able to
prove how this was an ISI conspiracy to destabilize India.
The Gujarat police has also been conveniently changing stands on the Godhra
case. First, they said the train was burnt from outside. When it was stated
by forensic experts that this can't be done and also cited the proof of the
same (being that if the train was burnt from outside, the tracks would also
have been burnt somewhat), the new theory formulated was that the vestibule
was cut and people went in and poured petrol inside. Nobody thought it fit
to realize that in the stone-throwing spree from outside, with the doors
closed, firstly people inside the bogie would have protested and pushed out
those who were pouring kerosene or petrol on the people. Secondly, all
sleeper coaches in such trains are connected and so people could have
escaped through these to other coaches. And most importantly, some people
did manage to escape through the door, though they did get injured due to
stone-throwing. And yes, while cloth rags were thrown inside the bogies, no
passenger eye-witness claimed any petrol or kerosene being thrown on them or
others.
The Gujarat police arrested even a blind person as part of the conspiracy.
And all of these were charged under POTA. Never mind that there was not an
iota of evidence to prove that these people were terrorists or were part of
a conspiracy!
This is about Godhra. Till today, we don't know how this act of burning took
place. We don't know who are the perpetrators. Horror of horrors, we don't
know who all actually lost their lives on that day, since the identities of
some of those who died are still not known (never mind that the
RSS-VHP-BJP-Bajrang Dal combine states that they are karsewaks, without any
evidence to back their claim). And we don't know why unlike in normal cases,
the Railway Ministry didn't institute a commission of inquiry to investigate
the event within 48 hours (this work being done by the Nanavati-Shah
commission).
When the police fails, a whole set of people are not able to get justice.
And a whole set of innocents then find themselves being implicated in false
cases.
But then some people live in the irony of pride of Gujarat.
Rakesh
It's hilarious for you to claim that we have started noting other riots or
pogroms. I don't think anyone with any sense of humanity can ever condone a
riot or a pogrom. Just because I didn't mention it or someone never
mentioned it doesn't mean they support it. First ask them before stating
such things.
For people like you who believe in tit-for-tat, two wrongs make a right.
Since Congress organized 1984 pogrom and got away with it, BJP according to
you also has a right to conduct 2002 pogrom and get away with it. Since
Congress according to you practises corruption, BJP also has a right to
indulge in corruption. And since Congress has a right to indulge in
appeasement of Muslims, BJP has a right to indulge in Hindu appeasement as
well.
It would be good for you to understand that both are wrong, and because you
have done a wrong act doesn't mean I too have a right to commit that wrong
act.
@ Pawan
I wonder what kind of person are you, who claims on one hand to have
suffered at the hands of fundamentalists in Kashmir and also the government,
(forced out of Kashmir, your home), and supporting a mass-murderer like Modi
who has a completely skewed notion of development and was fiddling like Nero
while Gujarat burnt.
I thought victims of tragedies of a similar kind understand each other. But
this notion of yours now makes me think twice about that assertion.
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Rakesh Iyer
2010-04-14 11:38:34 UTC
Permalink
Dear Pawan

Please read the subject of the mail once again.

Rakesh
Post by Pawan Durani
Dear Bipin Bhai ,
You have failed to understand of how certain people have very
conveniently diverted the issue away from Dantewada and naxalism by
focusing on Gujarat discussion .
Unfortunately , you became a willing companion.
Pawan
Post by Bipin Trivedi
I have applauding Modi for his efficient Governance ability. Its riot
matter
Post by Bipin Trivedi
we were talking and only Gujarat riot, not other riot everyone want to
highlight.
Other than riot, issue altogether different. Don't mix up riot and other
governing matters for discussion. For useless scheme like NREGA I have
already mentioned my views.
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 4:25 PM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: sarai-list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Dear Bipin
I post these mails in the hope that you would try to be rational and
understand that your faith in Modi is misguided.
As for exaggerating things, I had written mails on Right to Food and
NREGA
Post by Bipin Trivedi
as well. Then nobody was around here to argue for such things or suggest
better concrete measures. Even you have only such issues to argue upon.
Then
Post by Bipin Trivedi
even you and those who support your views had nothing to comment.
And I won't blame you, as I used to earlier. When people agree on certain
issues, there is nothing to argue about. People agree that a NREGA is
important or that a Right to Food is important, and therefore we don't
argue.
But you have conveniently forgotten facts only to prove yourself right. I
don't say that Modi has done all things wrong, but this is and will
remain a
Post by Bipin Trivedi
major blot on his governance and his ideas. And I don't think he
understands
Post by Bipin Trivedi
development as well.
Rakesh
@ Pawan ji: Even Rajiv Gandhi had sent the army after 3 days to quell the
1984 riots. That didn't stop the violence, because almost all the
violence
Post by Bipin Trivedi
took place in those 3 days. Same was the case here in Gujarat under Modi.
And as for the appeal, the appeal was followed, as Anupam pointed out
later,
Post by Bipin Trivedi
by a Gujarat Gaurav Rath Yatra, which was his election campaign.
Modi was belting out statements like 'Hum paanch humare pachees' during
his
Post by Bipin Trivedi
campaign, in clear violation of all norms of society. He would have done
better to know that as per the only report done on this, more Hindus had
been practising polygamy in India than Muslims. This report based on a
survey conducted in 1974 found out that 1 crore Hindus and 12 lakh
Muslims
Post by Bipin Trivedi
had indulged in polygamy. (all figures for men).
After that no figures have been obtained. So without figures, Modi has no
right to blame Muslims for having more wives than Hindus, based on his
useless perception-based theory.
Anupam said it right, go and watch the documentary: Final Solution. In
one
Post by Bipin Trivedi
of his speeches, Modi states that if Godhra would not have happened, not
even one stone would have been thrown. The rest is well understood.
Rakesh
Dear Rakesh,
Why you repeating all these, which you have mentioned many times and yet
the
Post by Bipin Trivedi
investigation going on by both commission and SC. The point here is only
this issue every one want to highlight while other riots swiftly
forgotten
Post by Bipin Trivedi
that was actually point I have mentioned in my mail in which you replied
all
Post by Bipin Trivedi
this.
You are proving me right again that only this issue every one want to
highlight and exaggerate.
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 2:38 PM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: sarai-list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Dear Bipin
You are talking about Godhra. First of all, Godhra is in Gujarat, and in
2002 when that incident took place, Gujarat had a BJP government in the
state whose primary responsibility it was to protect those who lost their
lives in the unfortunate incident.
Secondly, during that time, the Indian Govt. was the BJP-led NDA govt.,
and
Post by Bipin Trivedi
the Railways Minister was Nitish Kumar, the current Chief Minister of
Bihar.
Post by Bipin Trivedi
It was his and his ministry's responsibility to ensure that those
travelling
Post by Bipin Trivedi
in any train, including this one, were protected.
Both failed, and the consequences were disastrous.
Let us go further ahead and use the arguments Gujarat police have used.
The Gujarat police initially declared that this was an ISI-led conspiracy
to
Post by Bipin Trivedi
use local elements and instigate them to carry out this heinous act. Any
such act should have been caught by the intelligence machinery and
effective
Post by Bipin Trivedi
measures taken to catch the culprits and counter this effort. The fact
that
Post by Bipin Trivedi
both central intelligence and state intelligence failed to do so, is a
failure of governments both at the centre and the state, both of which
are
Post by Bipin Trivedi
BJP or BJP-led. So again, the blame goes on the BJP and their
governments.
Post by Bipin Trivedi
What is also shameful is that a whole pogrom occupied the matters of a
state
Post by Bipin Trivedi
for so much time which took place because supposedly ISI had a role in
burning of the train. So basically, if the ISI in Pakistan conducts an
act
Post by Bipin Trivedi
of killing Hindus here, there will be riots. What a shame indeed for the
Indian society and for the Indian state that all that the ISI has to do
is
Post by Bipin Trivedi
conduct such an act and then wait for a pogrom to take place!
It was of course another matter that till date they have not been able to
prove how this was an ISI conspiracy to destabilize India.
The Gujarat police has also been conveniently changing stands on the
Godhra
Post by Bipin Trivedi
case. First, they said the train was burnt from outside. When it was
stated
Post by Bipin Trivedi
by forensic experts that this can't be done and also cited the proof of
the
Post by Bipin Trivedi
same (being that if the train was burnt from outside, the tracks would
also
Post by Bipin Trivedi
have been burnt somewhat), the new theory formulated was that the
vestibule
Post by Bipin Trivedi
was cut and people went in and poured petrol inside. Nobody thought it
fit
Post by Bipin Trivedi
to realize that in the stone-throwing spree from outside, with the doors
closed, firstly people inside the bogie would have protested and pushed
out
Post by Bipin Trivedi
those who were pouring kerosene or petrol on the people. Secondly, all
sleeper coaches in such trains are connected and so people could have
escaped through these to other coaches. And most importantly, some people
did manage to escape through the door, though they did get injured due to
stone-throwing. And yes, while cloth rags were thrown inside the bogies,
no
Post by Bipin Trivedi
passenger eye-witness claimed any petrol or kerosene being thrown on them
or
Post by Bipin Trivedi
others.
The Gujarat police arrested even a blind person as part of the
conspiracy.
Post by Bipin Trivedi
And all of these were charged under POTA. Never mind that there was not
an
Post by Bipin Trivedi
iota of evidence to prove that these people were terrorists or were part
of
Post by Bipin Trivedi
a conspiracy!
This is about Godhra. Till today, we don't know how this act of burning
took
Post by Bipin Trivedi
place. We don't know who are the perpetrators. Horror of horrors, we
don't
Post by Bipin Trivedi
know who all actually lost their lives on that day, since the identities
of
Post by Bipin Trivedi
some of those who died are still not known (never mind that the
RSS-VHP-BJP-Bajrang Dal combine states that they are karsewaks, without
any
Post by Bipin Trivedi
evidence to back their claim). And we don't know why unlike in normal
cases,
Post by Bipin Trivedi
the Railway Ministry didn't institute a commission of inquiry to
investigate
Post by Bipin Trivedi
the event within 48 hours (this work being done by the Nanavati-Shah
commission).
When the police fails, a whole set of people are not able to get justice.
And a whole set of innocents then find themselves being implicated in
false
Post by Bipin Trivedi
cases.
But then some people live in the irony of pride of Gujarat.
Rakesh
It's hilarious for you to claim that we have started noting other riots
or
Post by Bipin Trivedi
pogroms. I don't think anyone with any sense of humanity can ever condone
a
Post by Bipin Trivedi
riot or a pogrom. Just because I didn't mention it or someone never
mentioned it doesn't mean they support it. First ask them before stating
such things.
For people like you who believe in tit-for-tat, two wrongs make a right.
Since Congress organized 1984 pogrom and got away with it, BJP according
to
Post by Bipin Trivedi
you also has a right to conduct 2002 pogrom and get away with it. Since
Congress according to you practises corruption, BJP also has a right to
indulge in corruption. And since Congress has a right to indulge in
appeasement of Muslims, BJP has a right to indulge in Hindu appeasement
as
Post by Bipin Trivedi
well.
It would be good for you to understand that both are wrong, and because
you
Post by Bipin Trivedi
have done a wrong act doesn't mean I too have a right to commit that
wrong
Post by Bipin Trivedi
act.
@ Pawan
I wonder what kind of person are you, who claims on one hand to have
suffered at the hands of fundamentalists in Kashmir and also the
government,
Post by Bipin Trivedi
(forced out of Kashmir, your home), and supporting a mass-murderer like
Modi
Post by Bipin Trivedi
who has a completely skewed notion of development and was fiddling like
Nero
Post by Bipin Trivedi
while Gujarat burnt.
I thought victims of tragedies of a similar kind understand each other.
But
Post by Bipin Trivedi
this notion of yours now makes me think twice about that assertion.
_________________________________________
reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
Critiques & Collaborations
subscribe in the subject header.
Post by Bipin Trivedi
To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
_________________________________________
reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
Critiques & Collaborations
subscribe in the subject header.
To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
_________________________________________
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Critiques & Collaborations
To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-***@sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.
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List archive: &lt;https://m
Bipin Trivedi
2010-04-14 11:44:39 UTC
Permalink
May be you are right, but this issue started again by posting reply I got
from Indira Hirway to me and appreciated by few readers!


-----Original Message-----
From: Pawan Durani [mailto:***@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 5:07 PM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: sarai-list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE

Dear Bipin Bhai ,

You have failed to understand of how certain people have very
conveniently diverted the issue away from Dantewada and naxalism by
focusing on Gujarat discussion .

Unfortunately , you became a willing companion.

Pawan
Post by Bipin Trivedi
I have applauding Modi for his efficient Governance ability. Its riot matter
we were talking and only Gujarat riot, not other riot everyone want to
highlight.
Other than riot, issue altogether different. Don't mix up riot and other
governing matters for discussion. For useless scheme like NREGA I have
already mentioned my views.
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 4:25 PM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: sarai-list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Dear Bipin
I post these mails in the hope that you would try to be rational and
understand that your faith in Modi is misguided.
As for exaggerating things, I had written mails on Right to Food and NREGA
as well. Then nobody was around here to argue for such things or suggest
better concrete measures. Even you have only such issues to argue upon. Then
even you and those who support your views had nothing to comment.
And I won't blame you, as I used to earlier. When people agree on certain
issues, there is nothing to argue about. People agree that a NREGA is
important or that a Right to Food is important, and therefore we don't
argue.
But you have conveniently forgotten facts only to prove yourself right. I
don't say that Modi has done all things wrong, but this is and will remain a
major blot on his governance and his ideas. And I don't think he understands
development as well.
Rakesh
@ Pawan ji: Even Rajiv Gandhi had sent the army after 3 days to quell the
1984 riots. That didn't stop the violence, because almost all the violence
took place in those 3 days. Same was the case here in Gujarat under Modi.
And as for the appeal, the appeal was followed, as Anupam pointed out later,
by a Gujarat Gaurav Rath Yatra, which was his election campaign.
Modi was belting out statements like 'Hum paanch humare pachees' during his
campaign, in clear violation of all norms of society. He would have done
better to know that as per the only report done on this, more Hindus had
been practising polygamy in India than Muslims. This report based on a
survey conducted in 1974 found out that 1 crore Hindus and 12 lakh Muslims
had indulged in polygamy. (all figures for men).
After that no figures have been obtained. So without figures, Modi has no
right to blame Muslims for having more wives than Hindus, based on his
useless perception-based theory.
Anupam said it right, go and watch the documentary: Final Solution. In one
of his speeches, Modi states that if Godhra would not have happened, not
even one stone would have been thrown. The rest is well understood.
Rakesh
Dear Rakesh,
Why you repeating all these, which you have mentioned many times and yet the
investigation going on by both commission and SC. The point here is only
this issue every one want to highlight while other riots swiftly forgotten
that was actually point I have mentioned in my mail in which you replied all
this.
You are proving me right again that only this issue every one want to
highlight and exaggerate.
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 2:38 PM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: sarai-list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Dear Bipin
You are talking about Godhra. First of all, Godhra is in Gujarat, and in
2002 when that incident took place, Gujarat had a BJP government in the
state whose primary responsibility it was to protect those who lost their
lives in the unfortunate incident.
Secondly, during that time, the Indian Govt. was the BJP-led NDA govt., and
the Railways Minister was Nitish Kumar, the current Chief Minister of Bihar.
It was his and his ministry's responsibility to ensure that those travelling
in any train, including this one, were protected.
Both failed, and the consequences were disastrous.
Let us go further ahead and use the arguments Gujarat police have used.
The Gujarat police initially declared that this was an ISI-led conspiracy to
use local elements and instigate them to carry out this heinous act. Any
such act should have been caught by the intelligence machinery and effective
measures taken to catch the culprits and counter this effort. The fact that
both central intelligence and state intelligence failed to do so, is a
failure of governments both at the centre and the state, both of which are
BJP or BJP-led. So again, the blame goes on the BJP and their governments.
What is also shameful is that a whole pogrom occupied the matters of a state
for so much time which took place because supposedly ISI had a role in
burning of the train. So basically, if the ISI in Pakistan conducts an act
of killing Hindus here, there will be riots. What a shame indeed for the
Indian society and for the Indian state that all that the ISI has to do is
conduct such an act and then wait for a pogrom to take place!
It was of course another matter that till date they have not been able to
prove how this was an ISI conspiracy to destabilize India.
The Gujarat police has also been conveniently changing stands on the Godhra
case. First, they said the train was burnt from outside. When it was stated
by forensic experts that this can't be done and also cited the proof of the
same (being that if the train was burnt from outside, the tracks would also
have been burnt somewhat), the new theory formulated was that the vestibule
was cut and people went in and poured petrol inside. Nobody thought it fit
to realize that in the stone-throwing spree from outside, with the doors
closed, firstly people inside the bogie would have protested and pushed out
those who were pouring kerosene or petrol on the people. Secondly, all
sleeper coaches in such trains are connected and so people could have
escaped through these to other coaches. And most importantly, some people
did manage to escape through the door, though they did get injured due to
stone-throwing. And yes, while cloth rags were thrown inside the bogies, no
passenger eye-witness claimed any petrol or kerosene being thrown on them or
others.
The Gujarat police arrested even a blind person as part of the conspiracy.
And all of these were charged under POTA. Never mind that there was not an
iota of evidence to prove that these people were terrorists or were part of
a conspiracy!
This is about Godhra. Till today, we don't know how this act of burning took
place. We don't know who are the perpetrators. Horror of horrors, we don't
know who all actually lost their lives on that day, since the identities of
some of those who died are still not known (never mind that the
RSS-VHP-BJP-Bajrang Dal combine states that they are karsewaks, without any
evidence to back their claim). And we don't know why unlike in normal cases,
the Railway Ministry didn't institute a commission of inquiry to investigate
the event within 48 hours (this work being done by the Nanavati-Shah
commission).
When the police fails, a whole set of people are not able to get justice.
And a whole set of innocents then find themselves being implicated in false
cases.
But then some people live in the irony of pride of Gujarat.
Rakesh
It's hilarious for you to claim that we have started noting other riots or
pogroms. I don't think anyone with any sense of humanity can ever condone a
riot or a pogrom. Just because I didn't mention it or someone never
mentioned it doesn't mean they support it. First ask them before stating
such things.
For people like you who believe in tit-for-tat, two wrongs make a right.
Since Congress organized 1984 pogrom and got away with it, BJP according to
you also has a right to conduct 2002 pogrom and get away with it. Since
Congress according to you practises corruption, BJP also has a right to
indulge in corruption. And since Congress has a right to indulge in
appeasement of Muslims, BJP has a right to indulge in Hindu appeasement as
well.
It would be good for you to understand that both are wrong, and because you
have done a wrong act doesn't mean I too have a right to commit that wrong
act.
@ Pawan
I wonder what kind of person are you, who claims on one hand to have
suffered at the hands of fundamentalists in Kashmir and also the government,
(forced out of Kashmir, your home), and supporting a mass-murderer like Modi
who has a completely skewed notion of development and was fiddling like Nero
while Gujarat burnt.
I thought victims of tragedies of a similar kind understand each other. But
this notion of yours now makes me think twice about that assertion.
_________________________________________
reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
Critiques & Collaborations
subscribe in the subject header.
Post by Bipin Trivedi
To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
List archive: &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
_________________________________________
reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
Critiques & Collaborations
To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-***@sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.
To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
List arc
Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi
2010-04-14 14:16:59 UTC
Permalink
Well said, Pawan, it is a praveen swami a communist party of west Bengal,
card holder, who defended the cadres of west bengal CPM who looted, raped in
Nandigram and singur, later when the locals joined with CPM (ml) or what is
now known as naxalism and list comes to discuss the naxalism, attention is
taken towards modi and gujarath riots.!
And as to Rakesh, it is not possible for me to argue, and not worth also as
he likes to write, see and act what he likes,( like me,) and we agree to
disagree.!May be with experience he will understand as I do now, how the
Indian National Congress is no more in existence, it started waning in 1939,
and became little crescent and a star with a cross in 1948 when Nehru took
over, later Indira and her son married a Sonia, to make it a party of
crusades against the pagan of india, be it kashmiri pandits or any other
denomination, thanks to the greed of individuals in different walks of
life.!
Regards,
rajen
Post by Pawan Durani
Dear Bipin Bhai ,
You have failed to understand of how certain people have very
conveniently diverted the issue away from Dantewada and naxalism by
focusing on Gujarat discussion .
Unfortunately , you became a willing companion.
Pawan
Post by Bipin Trivedi
I have applauding Modi for his efficient Governance ability. Its riot
matter
Post by Bipin Trivedi
we were talking and only Gujarat riot, not other riot everyone want to
highlight.
Other than riot, issue altogether different. Don't mix up riot and other
governing matters for discussion. For useless scheme like NREGA I have
already mentioned my views.
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 4:25 PM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: sarai-list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Dear Bipin
I post these mails in the hope that you would try to be rational and
understand that your faith in Modi is misguided.
As for exaggerating things, I had written mails on Right to Food and
NREGA
Post by Bipin Trivedi
as well. Then nobody was around here to argue for such things or suggest
better concrete measures. Even you have only such issues to argue upon.
Then
Post by Bipin Trivedi
even you and those who support your views had nothing to comment.
And I won't blame you, as I used to earlier. When people agree on certain
issues, there is nothing to argue about. People agree that a NREGA is
important or that a Right to Food is important, and therefore we don't
argue.
But you have conveniently forgotten facts only to prove yourself right. I
don't say that Modi has done all things wrong, but this is and will
remain a
Post by Bipin Trivedi
major blot on his governance and his ideas. And I don't think he
understands
Post by Bipin Trivedi
development as well.
Rakesh
@ Pawan ji: Even Rajiv Gandhi had sent the army after 3 days to quell the
1984 riots. That didn't stop the violence, because almost all the
violence
Post by Bipin Trivedi
took place in those 3 days. Same was the case here in Gujarat under Modi.
And as for the appeal, the appeal was followed, as Anupam pointed out
later,
Post by Bipin Trivedi
by a Gujarat Gaurav Rath Yatra, which was his election campaign.
Modi was belting out statements like 'Hum paanch humare pachees' during
his
Post by Bipin Trivedi
campaign, in clear violation of all norms of society. He would have done
better to know that as per the only report done on this, more Hindus had
been practising polygamy in India than Muslims. This report based on a
survey conducted in 1974 found out that 1 crore Hindus and 12 lakh
Muslims
Post by Bipin Trivedi
had indulged in polygamy. (all figures for men).
After that no figures have been obtained. So without figures, Modi has no
right to blame Muslims for having more wives than Hindus, based on his
useless perception-based theory.
Anupam said it right, go and watch the documentary: Final Solution. In
one
Post by Bipin Trivedi
of his speeches, Modi states that if Godhra would not have happened, not
even one stone would have been thrown. The rest is well understood.
Rakesh
Dear Rakesh,
Why you repeating all these, which you have mentioned many times and yet
the
Post by Bipin Trivedi
investigation going on by both commission and SC. The point here is only
this issue every one want to highlight while other riots swiftly
forgotten
Post by Bipin Trivedi
that was actually point I have mentioned in my mail in which you replied
all
Post by Bipin Trivedi
this.
You are proving me right again that only this issue every one want to
highlight and exaggerate.
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 2:38 PM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Cc: sarai-list
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] FW: FW: ATTEMPT OF TARNISHING GUJARAT IMAGE
Dear Bipin
You are talking about Godhra. First of all, Godhra is in Gujarat, and in
2002 when that incident took place, Gujarat had a BJP government in the
state whose primary responsibility it was to protect those who lost their
lives in the unfortunate incident.
Secondly, during that time, the Indian Govt. was the BJP-led NDA govt.,
and
Post by Bipin Trivedi
the Railways Minister was Nitish Kumar, the current Chief Minister of
Bihar.
Post by Bipin Trivedi
It was his and his ministry's responsibility to ensure that those
travelling
Post by Bipin Trivedi
in any train, including this one, were protected.
Both failed, and the consequences were disastrous.
Let us go further ahead and use the arguments Gujarat police have used.
The Gujarat police initially declared that this was an ISI-led conspiracy
to
Post by Bipin Trivedi
use local elements and instigate them to carry out this heinous act. Any
such act should have been caught by the intelligence machinery and
effective
Post by Bipin Trivedi
measures taken to catch the culprits and counter this effort. The fact
that
Post by Bipin Trivedi
both central intelligence and state intelligence failed to do so, is a
failure of governments both at the centre and the state, both of which
are
Post by Bipin Trivedi
BJP or BJP-led. So again, the blame goes on the BJP and their
governments.
Post by Bipin Trivedi
What is also shameful is that a whole pogrom occupied the matters of a
state
Post by Bipin Trivedi
for so much time which took place because supposedly ISI had a role in
burning of the train. So basically, if the ISI in Pakistan conducts an
act
Post by Bipin Trivedi
of killing Hindus here, there will be riots. What a shame indeed for the
Indian society and for the Indian state that all that the ISI has to do
is
Post by Bipin Trivedi
conduct such an act and then wait for a pogrom to take place!
It was of course another matter that till date they have not been able to
prove how this was an ISI conspiracy to destabilize India.
The Gujarat police has also been conveniently changing stands on the
Godhra
Post by Bipin Trivedi
case. First, they said the train was burnt from outside. When it was
stated
Post by Bipin Trivedi
by forensic experts that this can't be done and also cited the proof of
the
Post by Bipin Trivedi
same (being that if the train was burnt from outside, the tracks would
also
Post by Bipin Trivedi
have been burnt somewhat), the new theory formulated was that the
vestibule
Post by Bipin Trivedi
was cut and people went in and poured petrol inside. Nobody thought it
fit
Post by Bipin Trivedi
to realize that in the stone-throwing spree from outside, with the doors
closed, firstly people inside the bogie would have protested and pushed
out
Post by Bipin Trivedi
those who were pouring kerosene or petrol on the people. Secondly, all
sleeper coaches in such trains are connected and so people could have
escaped through these to other coaches. And most importantly, some people
did manage to escape through the door, though they did get injured due to
stone-throwing. And yes, while cloth rags were thrown inside the bogies,
no
Post by Bipin Trivedi
passenger eye-witness claimed any petrol or kerosene being thrown on them
or
Post by Bipin Trivedi
others.
The Gujarat police arrested even a blind person as part of the
conspiracy.
Post by Bipin Trivedi
And all of these were charged under POTA. Never mind that there was not
an
Post by Bipin Trivedi
iota of evidence to prove that these people were terrorists or were part
of
Post by Bipin Trivedi
a conspiracy!
This is about Godhra. Till today, we don't know how this act of burning
took
Post by Bipin Trivedi
place. We don't know who are the perpetrators. Horror of horrors, we
don't
Post by Bipin Trivedi
know who all actually lost their lives on that day, since the identities
of
Post by Bipin Trivedi
some of those who died are still not known (never mind that the
RSS-VHP-BJP-Bajrang Dal combine states that they are karsewaks, without
any
Post by Bipin Trivedi
evidence to back their claim). And we don't know why unlike in normal
cases,
Post by Bipin Trivedi
the Railway Ministry didn't institute a commission of inquiry to
investigate
Post by Bipin Trivedi
the event within 48 hours (this work being done by the Nanavati-Shah
commission).
When the police fails, a whole set of people are not able to get justice.
And a whole set of innocents then find themselves being implicated in
false
Post by Bipin Trivedi
cases.
But then some people live in the irony of pride of Gujarat.
Rakesh
It's hilarious for you to claim that we have started noting other riots
or
Post by Bipin Trivedi
pogroms. I don't think anyone with any sense of humanity can ever condone
a
Post by Bipin Trivedi
riot or a pogrom. Just because I didn't mention it or someone never
mentioned it doesn't mean they support it. First ask them before stating
such things.
For people like you who believe in tit-for-tat, two wrongs make a right.
Since Congress organized 1984 pogrom and got away with it, BJP according
to
Post by Bipin Trivedi
you also has a right to conduct 2002 pogrom and get away with it. Since
Congress according to you practises corruption, BJP also has a right to
indulge in corruption. And since Congress has a right to indulge in
appeasement of Muslims, BJP has a right to indulge in Hindu appeasement
as
Post by Bipin Trivedi
well.
It would be good for you to understand that both are wrong, and because
you
Post by Bipin Trivedi
have done a wrong act doesn't mean I too have a right to commit that
wrong
Post by Bipin Trivedi
act.
@ Pawan
I wonder what kind of person are you, who claims on one hand to have
suffered at the hands of fundamentalists in Kashmir and also the
government,
Post by Bipin Trivedi
(forced out of Kashmir, your home), and supporting a mass-murderer like
Modi
Post by Bipin Trivedi
who has a completely skewed notion of development and was fiddling like
Nero
Post by Bipin Trivedi
while Gujarat burnt.
I thought victims of tragedies of a similar kind understand each other.
But
Post by Bipin Trivedi
this notion of yours now makes me think twice about that assertion.
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Post by Bipin Trivedi
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--
Rajen.
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Rakesh Iyer
2010-04-14 14:45:38 UTC
Permalink
Dear Rajen

If you think that I am a Congress supporter, nothing can be far from the
truth. But yes, I do like the values which the Congress while it was
fighting the struggle for independence, be it the idea of socialism or
democracy. The Congress, as Ramachandra Guha once remakred, represents the
symptomatic decline of politics in India.

Also, I do agree that Nehru practised Muslim appeasement. But he did so not
out of being an appeaser, but because he didn't want Muslims in India to
feel threatened. The Congress under him was still democratic and the state
units could take decisions which Nehru would not like but had to adhere to.
It's his daughter Indira Gandhi who destroyed not only the Congress but
Indian politics.

If political parties today are turning into dynasty-breeding grounds, the
credit goes to Indira Gandhi. If Indian police, judiciary and administration
are extremely politicized today, it's because of Indira Gandhi. If today
corruption is one of the major problems of Indian polity, it's thanks to
Indira Gandhi. If today communalization of politics has taken place (to the
extent where the major opposition party to the Congress is the BJP), one
should thank Indira Gandhi for it. If there was one politician who made it
easier for politicians after her to indulge in extra-constitutional measures
and use armed intervention with no regard for human rights, it was Indira
Gandhi, through her Operation Bluestar. If there was one person who gave
rise to the concept of state-sponsored terrorism in South Asia (namely :
LTTE) it was Indira Gandhi (and RAW).

If Lal Bahadur Shaastri had not mysteriously died, the political history of
India would have been a lot different.

Rakesh
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anupam chakravartty
2010-04-14 14:51:48 UTC
Permalink
tarnish my image,
put it up on your wall,
burn it down,
for what doesnt appear,
will remain as a secret.
Post by Bipin Trivedi
Dear Rajen
If you think that I am a Congress supporter, nothing can be far from the
truth. But yes, I do like the values which the Congress while it was
fighting the struggle for independence, be it the idea of socialism or
democracy. The Congress, as Ramachandra Guha once remakred, represents the
symptomatic decline of politics in India.
Also, I do agree that Nehru practised Muslim appeasement. But he did so not
out of being an appeaser, but because he didn't want Muslims in India to
feel threatened. The Congress under him was still democratic and the state
units could take decisions which Nehru would not like but had to adhere to.
It's his daughter Indira Gandhi who destroyed not only the Congress but
Indian politics.
If political parties today are turning into dynasty-breeding grounds, the
credit goes to Indira Gandhi. If Indian police, judiciary and
administration
are extremely politicized today, it's because of Indira Gandhi. If today
corruption is one of the major problems of Indian polity, it's thanks to
Indira Gandhi. If today communalization of politics has taken place (to the
extent where the major opposition party to the Congress is the BJP), one
should thank Indira Gandhi for it. If there was one politician who made it
easier for politicians after her to indulge in extra-constitutional measures
and use armed intervention with no regard for human rights, it was Indira
Gandhi, through her Operation Bluestar. If there was one person who gave
LTTE) it was Indira Gandhi (and RAW).
If Lal Bahadur Shaastri had not mysteriously died, the political history of
India would have been a lot different.
Rakesh
_________________________________________
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Critiques & Collaborations
subscribe in the subject header.
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Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi
2010-04-15 12:49:26 UTC
Permalink
Rakesh,
who am I to judge anyone or their likings or dislikes, but having seen the
life for last sixty years, born in a family of individuals who gave
everylife for freedom struggles, having lost material wealth for the values
inculcated by mahatma, having worked in sevadal as volanteer, all my dreams
crashed in 1976, in detention for "Talking" about the freedom of citizens,
which made the experience richer, knowledge digestible, that, our
constitution is bunch of papers and words, which can be used or misused by
power seekers with amendments to remain in power.In 1977 it was a sense of
being in heaven when the opposition unity saw the dictator out, but again it
was short lived bliss, as "leaders' fought worse than street dogs, behaved
like jokers in a big circus of governance, DmNT mORARJEE, rAJ NARAIN TAUGHT
THE NATION, HOW A LEADER SHOULD NOT BE IN PUBLIC LIFE.!
bY THEN, THE WORDS OF MAHATMA WERE REVERBERATING, THAT THE cONGRESS SHOULD
BE DISSOLVED, LEADERS CAN FOR THEIR OUTFITS SUITABLE FOR THEM, (1948) and
these did that, to subvert the democratic life on the caste, faith and
religion and region, thanks to Nehru who devised the linguistic states of
divide and rule legacy.!
Today as I see the party and the other parties, it is very difficult to
envisage any good governance as all are after power, none for common man, to
seek power, material wealth is necessity, so corruption is in built in the
system.
But once in a while a whip of fresh air does come from many a political
parties but not Congress.The Indian national Congress of Alan Hume is dead
in 1948, 30th Jan.What we see now is a bunch of sycophants held by the glue
of italy known also as sonia.
Regards,
rajen.
Post by Bipin Trivedi
Dear Rajen
If you think that I am a Congress supporter, nothing can be far from the
truth. But yes, I do like the values which the Congress while it was
fighting the struggle for independence, be it the idea of socialism or
democracy. The Congress, as Ramachandra Guha once remakred, represents the
symptomatic decline of politics in India.
Also, I do agree that Nehru practised Muslim appeasement. But he did so not
out of being an appeaser, but because he didn't want Muslims in India to
feel threatened. The Congress under him was still democratic and the state
units could take decisions which Nehru would not like but had to adhere to.
It's his daughter Indira Gandhi who destroyed not only the Congress but
Indian politics.
If political parties today are turning into dynasty-breeding grounds, the
credit goes to Indira Gandhi. If Indian police, judiciary and administration
are extremely politicized today, it's because of Indira Gandhi. If today
corruption is one of the major problems of Indian polity, it's thanks to
Indira Gandhi. If today communalization of politics has taken place (to the
extent where the major opposition party to the Congress is the BJP), one
should thank Indira Gandhi for it. If there was one politician who made it
easier for politicians after her to indulge in extra-constitutional measures
and use armed intervention with no regard for human rights, it was Indira
Gandhi, through her Operation Bluestar. If there was one person who gave
LTTE) it was Indira Gandhi (and RAW).
If Lal Bahadur Shaastri had not mysteriously died, the political history of
India would have been a lot different.
Rakesh
--
Rajen.
_________________________________________
reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
Critiques & Collaborations
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Bipin Trivedi
2010-04-16 06:55:14 UTC
Permalink
Forwarding mail received from Rekesh in reply to my mail but forgot put on
sarai list simultaneously.


-----Original Message-----
From: Rakesh Iyer [mailto:***@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 4:53 PM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Subject: Re: NAREGA

Dear Bipin

Note (for all including Bipin): This is an extremely long mail. If you lose
patience while reading this, I apologize, but please read it if you can, as
I try to explain my points properly.

Let me answer each and every point of yours in detail:

1) I have not credited Sonia Gandhi for NREGA in the sense you have put. I
would say that she is the only one in this government setup who had the
understanding to think about it, probably with the view of winning
elections.

2) You are stating that NDA was right in implementing infrastructure
projects for the development of a country. I would not completely disagree
with you. The Golden Quadrilateral scheme is one of the best schemes we
could have ever conceived of, and one should not forget that it was the NDA
which had thought of introducing such a scheme not only in roadways, but
also in railways, which was shelved (though I couldn't find who had shelved
it, the NDA or the UPA). You also state that UPA has not thought of
long-term vision as it has gone for NREGA.

Firstly, I am not against such infrastructure projects like Golden
Quadrilateral, but infact wholeheartedly support them. Construction of
highways is an utmost priority for us, so also construction of roads, be it
in urban or rural areas. Moreover, we do need construction of good quality
houses, and other kinds of infrastructure like railways and ports as well.

The way you put your point across seems to me like you are claiming that the
way is either MGREGA or highways. That's wrong. Both can go together
simultaneously. The Golden Quadrilateral should simultaneously go on with
MGREGA. We need both. The question then comes as per the point raised: why
both?

You have said that if infrastructure development takes place, then there
will be a labour boom and therefore we don't need MGREGA. That unfortunately
is belied. It is certainly true that an infrastructure boom will lead to
demand for labor in India. However, most of the infrastructure boom will
also employ large no. of machines which are required to ensure quality
construction. Those works will not be undertaken by laborers simply because
it requires substantial investment in laborers (in terms of both money and
time) to ensure they get the required skills to conduct those operations,
and secondly, many of these operations can't be done by laborers (like
laborers can't do the work of heavy cranes and bulldozers). Therefore, the
labor boom being talked about is not going to employ a huge chunk of people
as being claimed, when compared with labor supply of India. And you won't
get quality construction if you employ labor at the cost of machines.

Secondly, the history of capitalism across the nations, not just in India,
tells us that with increase in profits, capital becomes cheaper than labor.
It's cheaper to invest more money rather than employ more labor. And
therefore, with time, many companies come to the conclusion that it's better
to invest in labor-saving machines rather than employ labor. Moreover, since
companies prefer not to pay too much in wages to labor (unless absolutely
necessary) and also fear labor unions (since they would like to pay as low
wages as possible), there is less requirement for labor. The end result is
that with increasing economic output, we will see lesser and lesser labor
being employed. This can be seen in the employment pattern as well.

Therefore, the requirement for such labor will go down over a period of
time. And the labor which will be required will be specialized labor, whose
no. as per requirement will also decrease with time. Hence, such unskilled
workers will be left nowhere. Already this can be seen in the case of our IT
and services sector, where an uneducated person can't do anything, whereas
at least in industries, an uneducated person can still be doing manual labor
work like in iron and steel industry for transportation.

As demand for labor goes down, and supply is increasing due to increasing
population, with majority increase among those who are poor and therefore
uneducated and unskilled, we will see a fall in wages. (Demand-supply
economics). Therefore, such people have to engage in labor for long hours
with low wages. They don't get any protection through labor laws, and there
are no safety nets to fall on in case there are accidents or any mishaps
during working. They are not given any monetary compensation (companies are
not legally liable) in case they suffer physically or mentally or both
during accidents. And the contractors who employ them also don't pay them
entire salary for the day but keep a part of it with them to ensure that the
laborers don't run away to villages after the work is over and work can be
done at cheap rates to ensure fatter profits for the contractors themselves.


To force people to come out of rural areas so that they do manual labor at
petty wages with no social security nets is against the basic human right to
lead a life with dignity. This should be corrected, and if a MGREGA is
needed to address this anomaly, so be it. The right path for industries and
capitalists is not to protest the scheme but increase the wages as well as
lobby with the govt. to introduce labor laws so that accordingly laborers
can feel the need to work in these companies.

3) You have a completely irrational logic of parliamentary democracy. In a
democracy, where the rule is to get a majority to be in power, all parties,
be it the Congress, BJP, DMK, SP, BSP etc. have to win the trust of people.
Since most of the parties today can't claim to be universally doing well for
all people, they have to gain trust of certain sections of the society in
order to win elections. And this they do so on an all-out basis. And by the
way vote bank politics is practised by all political parties not only in
India, but also by parties in other countries.

In USA, the Republicans have a vote bank in the form of Christian
fundamentalists and evangelists who voted against Obama in the 2008
elections for US president. The Democrats on the other hand always have the
Blacks (African-Americans) voting for them. This is vote-bank politics.

In Britain, the Labour party generally gets the votes of the migrants (those
from outside England who have become citizens, like Indians and Pakistanis),
while the Conservatives get the votes of those who feel such migration
should be banned and migrants should be deported to their native countries.

In India, similarly, Muslims don't vote for the BJP. And Congress tries to
get certain sections of the society behind it. BJP on the other hand tries
to ensure that all Hindus vote for it en-bloc so that it can win elections.
The BSP asks Dalits and Brahmans to vote for it. So do the other political
parties with their sphere of influences and castes.

Vote-bank politics in India is wrong because it ensures that you don't have
to work to win elections. You just have to be a member of a group or party
or some set and that ensures you get some votes. I accept that
wholeheartedly. But to say that vote-bank politics is only played by the
Congress is a misperception. Everybody does it.

Politics should be developmental, not vote-bank based in the sense it has
been, because such politics is narrow and pits groups against groups and
only leads to animosity amongst them. Once this animosity sets in amongst
people, then it's extremely difficult to break this cycle and feeling. But
it can be done, as the BSP showed it when they won in 2007 elections by
bringing Brahmans over to their side. And everybody does it and has done it
in the past.

But to say that it's only in India or done by Congress which is wrong.

But vote-bank politics is also not wrong necessarily, because if I don't
know any of the candidates, I will trust the person who is from my group, be
it caste, gender, religion or others since I don't know who is good and who
is bad. So therefore, the right thing should be greater awareness of the
candidates and also understanding of their positions and debates. Every
election in India should be like the US parliamentary election with debates
amongst all candidates on what they intend to do and questions asked of them
to judge them. That will be a good way to go.

4) The MGREGA is being used to develop infrastructure in countryside indeed.
Wells are being constructed, as also other ways of irrigation. Moreover,
work is being done to construct roads, which are then supplemented by cement
road construction with labor work providing better strength to the roads.
They are also helping in plantation of trees and thus combating both climate
change and environmental degradation, as announced by India at Copenhagen.

Even constructing schools, providing services like Mid-day meal cooking or
cleaning buildings, goes a long way in providing or maintaining
infrastructure. And that should be appreciated.

5) If you don't believe that the standard of living of poor has improved,
may be you should undertake a rural tour of Andhra Pradesh with P.Sainath.
This famous journalist writes in the Hindu (the rural areas correspondent of
the Hindu), and is generally spending on an average about 300 days in a year
in rural areas of Andhra Pradesh and also rest of the country. He has
himself seen accounts of how Telangana, one of the most backward regions of
the country, has been benefited by NREGA, how people from Karimnagar,
Adilabad and other backward districts in the region have stopped migrating
to Mumbai and able to lead lives in their own village and work in nearby
areas, and thereby being able to send their children to the school so that
the children can enjoy the Mid-day meal as well as get some education.

Do read him regularly. He is one person you can read in the Hindu, and I
eagerly wait for his articles. The Hindu may be a Communist newspaper under
N. Ram, but Sainath is one person who goes to rural areas to know the truth.
And I don't think people commenting on this forum regularly go to rural
areas at his frequency to know about them.

Yes there is corruption, but as I said, think of implementing transparency
measures rather than advising what the World Bank said: dismantle the govt.
machinery. The poor of India have become more deprived of nutrition and
other basic needs once the govt. has relegated its social responsibilities
to the market.

6) This is an interesting point since it comes for discussion regularly.
Firstly, those who can employ agricultural labor are actually the rich and
middle farmers, since small farmers don't have the money to employ labor.
Moreover, you don't have any statistics to back your claim that agricultural
productivity has gone down since the implementation of NREGA. Infact, to
suppress your point, let me state that in 2007 and 2008 (years in which
NREGA was being implemented across the nation), the agricultural
productivity was at record levels for cereals and pulses as well as other
crops.

It's only in 2009 that the agricultural productivity has gone down, and the
govt. has claimed that drought is the major reason for this (both in terms
of climate and lack of availability of water).

If farmers are not able to employ labor, then other methods can be thought
about. One way could be mechanisation of agriculture or even making
agriculture cooperatives where farmers can pool resources to use machines to
increase the production. This can be accompanies by sound techniques as well
like intensification of growing crops (used in rice crop in Tamil Nadu).

Instead, you seem to claim that some people should continue to work at petty
wages per day so that the agricultural productivity of India can be high,
even if it means that they are not able to enjoy 3 sound meals per day. I
would disagree. What's the use of me working as an agricultural laborer and
growing grains for others if I can't feed my own family properly?

As for food prices and inflation, this is mainly because the retail prices
are high compared to the wholesale prices. The farmers are not able to get
the advantage of these high prices, and it's the middlemen who are
responsible for such high prices. The correct step is to completely remove
middlemen and instead set up agricultural cooperatives monitored by the govt
which can buy from the farmers and directly sell food to the consumers. That
will comprehensively bring down inflation. Simple. There is no role of
agricultural labor reduction in all this.

And what I say here is already there in Outlook and Tehelka magazine as well
as other places.

Plus this capitalist way of opening essential commodities to futures trading
should be banned. That is something you may not agree with, but that's
essential.

7) The scheme is meant to ensure that people are provided work by the govt.
The people will only become lazy if the scheme doesn't provide work to
people. The schemes for any village are decided upon by the Gram Sabha in a
publicly organized meeting which has to be well attended and everybody must
have information about the meeting. Moreover, the schemes are monitored and
social audits can be undertaken by any organization, or any individual. Even
you can undertake them.

Going further ahead, you can use the RTI to get information about how the
NREGA is functioning in any village of this country even if you don't belong
to that village. You can ask about the material-labor component and
construction works done as well as stages in which the works are going on,
through usage of the RTI.

If you have any proof of people becoming lazy, do put it. Till now, not a
single instance of such a thing has been stated by anybody who has gone to a
village to study the working of NREGA. I would be most surprised if I were
to hear anybody finding one.


8) Your final point was about land reforms. Firstly, land reforms are not
meant to improve agricultural productivity. They are meant to ensure that
everyone has some land in his/her own name. The question may come: Why?

Simple. Land is an asset, particularly for a rural family. One can fall back
on this rural land resource in times of distress, by renting it or by using
it to feed fodder to animals so that they can generate some milk or meat
which could be sold or other ways. That's why land is an asset, and
everybody wants land.

Land reforms bring about equitable distribution of land so that families are
able to have some land for themselves. West Bengal conducted the Operation
Barga during Jyoti Basu's CM-ship to bring about partial land reforms. There
were problems in implementation of land reforms and mismanagement and
corruption were also seen, which is why they were partial finally and not as
effective as required. Full land reforms would have also involved formation
of cooperatives and bringing together land of all for increasing
agricultural productivity. This was done in Communist China and it brought
about huge increases in agricultural productivity there. Here in India it
was avoided and didn't bring about significant changes.

But Gujarat never brought about land reforms for equitable distribution of
land. And that ironically led to higher productivity for a certain section
of farmers who are rich and can afford irrigation facilities and use of
scientific techniques, whereas for the rest it has brought nothing. Gujarat
state governments have only concentrated on bringing about more growth in
the economy rather than also think of redistributing the benefits of
economic growth, and the result is this:

a) Out of all the BJP-ruled states, Gujarat is the most prosperous and yet,
it has the highest income-equality of all, since income distribution was
never a priority for the governments there in general. (as per NFHS - 3,
2005-06)

b) The under-five mortality rate of Gujarat is only marginally below Madhya
Pradesh, while it is above Maharashtra. Also, there is larger
health-inequality in Gujarat than other states which have lower prosperity.
And this is primarily because some get rich and the benefits of this
economic growth don't reach as they should for all sections of the society.

c) Farmer suicides are taking place in Gujarat, and this is as per the
Gujarat govt's own information. While the farmer suicides are of not the
level of Vidarbha or Andhra Pradesh or even Kerala, they are increasing.

Now please dont' crib that the data is for 2005-06. The National Family
Health Survey is undertaken by the Health Ministry after certain intervals,
and I can't ask the Central Govt. to undertake this survey again.

I don't say that agricultural productivity should not be high. But yes,
redistribution of income to the poor is something even Modi would not have
the guts to oppose. That is what is required.

On a further comprehensive article or mail on Gujarat, I would certainly do
that after reading the necessary resources in the summer as I would be busy
with exam. But yes, we can do it not only for Gujarat but for other states
as well (and we should do it I feel).

As for NREGA, I stated what I had to.

Rakesh


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Rakesh Iyer
2010-04-16 09:06:55 UTC
Permalink
Dear Bipin

Thanks a lot.

Rakesh
Post by Bipin Trivedi
Forwarding mail received from Rekesh in reply to my mail but forgot put on
sarai list simultaneously.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 4:53 PM
To: Bipin Trivedi
Subject: Re: NAREGA
Dear Bipin
Note (for all including Bipin): This is an extremely long mail. If you lose
patience while reading this, I apologize, but please read it if you can, as
I try to explain my points properly.
1) I have not credited Sonia Gandhi for NREGA in the sense you have put. I
would say that she is the only one in this government setup who had the
understanding to think about it, probably with the view of winning
elections.
2) You are stating that NDA was right in implementing infrastructure
projects for the development of a country. I would not completely disagree
with you. The Golden Quadrilateral scheme is one of the best schemes we
could have ever conceived of, and one should not forget that it was the NDA
which had thought of introducing such a scheme not only in roadways, but
also in railways, which was shelved (though I couldn't find who had shelved
it, the NDA or the UPA). You also state that UPA has not thought of
long-term vision as it has gone for NREGA.
Firstly, I am not against such infrastructure projects like Golden
Quadrilateral, but infact wholeheartedly support them. Construction of
highways is an utmost priority for us, so also construction of roads, be it
in urban or rural areas. Moreover, we do need construction of good quality
houses, and other kinds of infrastructure like railways and ports as well.
The way you put your point across seems to me like you are claiming that the
way is either MGREGA or highways. That's wrong. Both can go together
simultaneously. The Golden Quadrilateral should simultaneously go on with
MGREGA. We need both. The question then comes as per the point raised: why
both?
You have said that if infrastructure development takes place, then there
will be a labour boom and therefore we don't need MGREGA. That
unfortunately
is belied. It is certainly true that an infrastructure boom will lead to
demand for labor in India. However, most of the infrastructure boom will
also employ large no. of machines which are required to ensure quality
construction. Those works will not be undertaken by laborers simply because
it requires substantial investment in laborers (in terms of both money and
time) to ensure they get the required skills to conduct those operations,
and secondly, many of these operations can't be done by laborers (like
laborers can't do the work of heavy cranes and bulldozers). Therefore, the
labor boom being talked about is not going to employ a huge chunk of people
as being claimed, when compared with labor supply of India. And you won't
get quality construction if you employ labor at the cost of machines.
Secondly, the history of capitalism across the nations, not just in India,
tells us that with increase in profits, capital becomes cheaper than labor.
It's cheaper to invest more money rather than employ more labor. And
therefore, with time, many companies come to the conclusion that it's better
to invest in labor-saving machines rather than employ labor. Moreover, since
companies prefer not to pay too much in wages to labor (unless absolutely
necessary) and also fear labor unions (since they would like to pay as low
wages as possible), there is less requirement for labor. The end result is
that with increasing economic output, we will see lesser and lesser labor
being employed. This can be seen in the employment pattern as well.
Therefore, the requirement for such labor will go down over a period of
time. And the labor which will be required will be specialized labor, whose
no. as per requirement will also decrease with time. Hence, such unskilled
workers will be left nowhere. Already this can be seen in the case of our IT
and services sector, where an uneducated person can't do anything, whereas
at least in industries, an uneducated person can still be doing manual labor
work like in iron and steel industry for transportation.
As demand for labor goes down, and supply is increasing due to increasing
population, with majority increase among those who are poor and therefore
uneducated and unskilled, we will see a fall in wages. (Demand-supply
economics). Therefore, such people have to engage in labor for long hours
with low wages. They don't get any protection through labor laws, and there
are no safety nets to fall on in case there are accidents or any mishaps
during working. They are not given any monetary compensation (companies are
not legally liable) in case they suffer physically or mentally or both
during accidents. And the contractors who employ them also don't pay them
entire salary for the day but keep a part of it with them to ensure that the
laborers don't run away to villages after the work is over and work can be
done at cheap rates to ensure fatter profits for the contractors themselves.
To force people to come out of rural areas so that they do manual labor at
petty wages with no social security nets is against the basic human right to
lead a life with dignity. This should be corrected, and if a MGREGA is
needed to address this anomaly, so be it. The right path for industries and
capitalists is not to protest the scheme but increase the wages as well as
lobby with the govt. to introduce labor laws so that accordingly laborers
can feel the need to work in these companies.
3) You have a completely irrational logic of parliamentary democracy. In a
democracy, where the rule is to get a majority to be in power, all parties,
be it the Congress, BJP, DMK, SP, BSP etc. have to win the trust of people.
Since most of the parties today can't claim to be universally doing well for
all people, they have to gain trust of certain sections of the society in
order to win elections. And this they do so on an all-out basis. And by the
way vote bank politics is practised by all political parties not only in
India, but also by parties in other countries.
In USA, the Republicans have a vote bank in the form of Christian
fundamentalists and evangelists who voted against Obama in the 2008
elections for US president. The Democrats on the other hand always have the
Blacks (African-Americans) voting for them. This is vote-bank politics.
In Britain, the Labour party generally gets the votes of the migrants (those
from outside England who have become citizens, like Indians and Pakistanis),
while the Conservatives get the votes of those who feel such migration
should be banned and migrants should be deported to their native countries.
In India, similarly, Muslims don't vote for the BJP. And Congress tries to
get certain sections of the society behind it. BJP on the other hand tries
to ensure that all Hindus vote for it en-bloc so that it can win elections.
The BSP asks Dalits and Brahmans to vote for it. So do the other political
parties with their sphere of influences and castes.
Vote-bank politics in India is wrong because it ensures that you don't have
to work to win elections. You just have to be a member of a group or party
or some set and that ensures you get some votes. I accept that
wholeheartedly. But to say that vote-bank politics is only played by the
Congress is a misperception. Everybody does it.
Politics should be developmental, not vote-bank based in the sense it has
been, because such politics is narrow and pits groups against groups and
only leads to animosity amongst them. Once this animosity sets in amongst
people, then it's extremely difficult to break this cycle and feeling. But
it can be done, as the BSP showed it when they won in 2007 elections by
bringing Brahmans over to their side. And everybody does it and has done it
in the past.
But to say that it's only in India or done by Congress which is wrong.
But vote-bank politics is also not wrong necessarily, because if I don't
know any of the candidates, I will trust the person who is from my group, be
it caste, gender, religion or others since I don't know who is good and who
is bad. So therefore, the right thing should be greater awareness of the
candidates and also understanding of their positions and debates. Every
election in India should be like the US parliamentary election with debates
amongst all candidates on what they intend to do and questions asked of them
to judge them. That will be a good way to go.
4) The MGREGA is being used to develop infrastructure in countryside indeed.
Wells are being constructed, as also other ways of irrigation. Moreover,
work is being done to construct roads, which are then supplemented by cement
road construction with labor work providing better strength to the roads.
They are also helping in plantation of trees and thus combating both climate
change and environmental degradation, as announced by India at Copenhagen.
Even constructing schools, providing services like Mid-day meal cooking or
cleaning buildings, goes a long way in providing or maintaining
infrastructure. And that should be appreciated.
5) If you don't believe that the standard of living of poor has improved,
may be you should undertake a rural tour of Andhra Pradesh with P.Sainath.
This famous journalist writes in the Hindu (the rural areas correspondent of
the Hindu), and is generally spending on an average about 300 days in a year
in rural areas of Andhra Pradesh and also rest of the country. He has
himself seen accounts of how Telangana, one of the most backward regions of
the country, has been benefited by NREGA, how people from Karimnagar,
Adilabad and other backward districts in the region have stopped migrating
to Mumbai and able to lead lives in their own village and work in nearby
areas, and thereby being able to send their children to the school so that
the children can enjoy the Mid-day meal as well as get some education.
Do read him regularly. He is one person you can read in the Hindu, and I
eagerly wait for his articles. The Hindu may be a Communist newspaper under
N. Ram, but Sainath is one person who goes to rural areas to know the truth.
And I don't think people commenting on this forum regularly go to rural
areas at his frequency to know about them.
Yes there is corruption, but as I said, think of implementing transparency
measures rather than advising what the World Bank said: dismantle the govt.
machinery. The poor of India have become more deprived of nutrition and
other basic needs once the govt. has relegated its social responsibilities
to the market.
6) This is an interesting point since it comes for discussion regularly.
Firstly, those who can employ agricultural labor are actually the rich and
middle farmers, since small farmers don't have the money to employ labor.
Moreover, you don't have any statistics to back your claim that agricultural
productivity has gone down since the implementation of NREGA. Infact, to
suppress your point, let me state that in 2007 and 2008 (years in which
NREGA was being implemented across the nation), the agricultural
productivity was at record levels for cereals and pulses as well as other
crops.
It's only in 2009 that the agricultural productivity has gone down, and the
govt. has claimed that drought is the major reason for this (both in terms
of climate and lack of availability of water).
If farmers are not able to employ labor, then other methods can be thought
about. One way could be mechanisation of agriculture or even making
agriculture cooperatives where farmers can pool resources to use machines to
increase the production. This can be accompanies by sound techniques as well
like intensification of growing crops (used in rice crop in Tamil Nadu).
Instead, you seem to claim that some people should continue to work at petty
wages per day so that the agricultural productivity of India can be high,
even if it means that they are not able to enjoy 3 sound meals per day. I
would disagree. What's the use of me working as an agricultural laborer and
growing grains for others if I can't feed my own family properly?
As for food prices and inflation, this is mainly because the retail prices
are high compared to the wholesale prices. The farmers are not able to get
the advantage of these high prices, and it's the middlemen who are
responsible for such high prices. The correct step is to completely remove
middlemen and instead set up agricultural cooperatives monitored by the govt
which can buy from the farmers and directly sell food to the consumers. That
will comprehensively bring down inflation. Simple. There is no role of
agricultural labor reduction in all this.
And what I say here is already there in Outlook and Tehelka magazine as well
as other places.
Plus this capitalist way of opening essential commodities to futures trading
should be banned. That is something you may not agree with, but that's
essential.
7) The scheme is meant to ensure that people are provided work by the govt.
The people will only become lazy if the scheme doesn't provide work to
people. The schemes for any village are decided upon by the Gram Sabha in a
publicly organized meeting which has to be well attended and everybody must
have information about the meeting. Moreover, the schemes are monitored and
social audits can be undertaken by any organization, or any individual. Even
you can undertake them.
Going further ahead, you can use the RTI to get information about how the
NREGA is functioning in any village of this country even if you don't belong
to that village. You can ask about the material-labor component and
construction works done as well as stages in which the works are going on,
through usage of the RTI.
If you have any proof of people becoming lazy, do put it. Till now, not a
single instance of such a thing has been stated by anybody who has gone to a
village to study the working of NREGA. I would be most surprised if I were
to hear anybody finding one.
8) Your final point was about land reforms. Firstly, land reforms are not
meant to improve agricultural productivity. They are meant to ensure that
everyone has some land in his/her own name. The question may come: Why?
Simple. Land is an asset, particularly for a rural family. One can fall back
on this rural land resource in times of distress, by renting it or by using
it to feed fodder to animals so that they can generate some milk or meat
which could be sold or other ways. That's why land is an asset, and
everybody wants land.
Land reforms bring about equitable distribution of land so that families are
able to have some land for themselves. West Bengal conducted the Operation
Barga during Jyoti Basu's CM-ship to bring about partial land reforms. There
were problems in implementation of land reforms and mismanagement and
corruption were also seen, which is why they were partial finally and not as
effective as required. Full land reforms would have also involved formation
of cooperatives and bringing together land of all for increasing
agricultural productivity. This was done in Communist China and it brought
about huge increases in agricultural productivity there. Here in India it
was avoided and didn't bring about significant changes.
But Gujarat never brought about land reforms for equitable distribution of
land. And that ironically led to higher productivity for a certain section
of farmers who are rich and can afford irrigation facilities and use of
scientific techniques, whereas for the rest it has brought nothing. Gujarat
state governments have only concentrated on bringing about more growth in
the economy rather than also think of redistributing the benefits of
a) Out of all the BJP-ruled states, Gujarat is the most prosperous and yet,
it has the highest income-equality of all, since income distribution was
never a priority for the governments there in general. (as per NFHS - 3,
2005-06)
b) The under-five mortality rate of Gujarat is only marginally below Madhya
Pradesh, while it is above Maharashtra. Also, there is larger
health-inequality in Gujarat than other states which have lower prosperity.
And this is primarily because some get rich and the benefits of this
economic growth don't reach as they should for all sections of the society.
c) Farmer suicides are taking place in Gujarat, and this is as per the
Gujarat govt's own information. While the farmer suicides are of not the
level of Vidarbha or Andhra Pradesh or even Kerala, they are increasing.
Now please dont' crib that the data is for 2005-06. The National Family
Health Survey is undertaken by the Health Ministry after certain intervals,
and I can't ask the Central Govt. to undertake this survey again.
I don't say that agricultural productivity should not be high. But yes,
redistribution of income to the poor is something even Modi would not have
the guts to oppose. That is what is required.
On a further comprehensive article or mail on Gujarat, I would certainly do
that after reading the necessary resources in the summer as I would be busy
with exam. But yes, we can do it not only for Gujarat but for other states
as well (and we should do it I feel).
As for NREGA, I stated what I had to.
Rakesh
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